3 ms·

See in your case with the military you can directly say, hey my code will be used to bomb other people possibly. But in today's times it isn't (I am sure even t

See in your case with the military you can directly say, hey my code will be used to bomb other people possibly. But in today's times it isn't (I am sure even then) so cut and dry. I worked in AdTech industry (like 60% of the bay area techies). So the ad tech I write gets shown to millions/billions. What about ads influencing elections and then politicians waging wars? Anti-vax ads which influence people and then kill them. Scam ads. Insurance ads and then people not getting cancer meds from the same insurance. Am I responsible for those deaths? I would say Yes. But what is the option? I feel each of us wants to draw a line based off of our morality but the circumstances don't allow us to stick to it (still gotta pay rent) We are all on a Titanic the way I see it. It's just the DARPA guy is gonna sink first. Rest of us are just pretending to be Jack trying to be the last ones to go.

rokhayakebe 7mo ago
Well you cannot be responsible for adults' discernment or their critical thinking. If those same ads are being shown to children that would be different.
- danielbarla 7mo ago
  I don't see this as a binary thing. Legally we tend to draw a clear line between child and adult for pragmatic purposes, but I don't think my responsibility of intent disappears just because someone hits a magical number. I have steered clear of various gambling / "gaming" jobs which have had silly high salaries as a result; I don't in any way want to participate in things which are meant to play the weak points of the human psyche like a harp, for profit.
- awesomeMilou 7mo ago
  But they are? And it's a fallacy to assume that critical thinking is something that you're born with. In addition to the media landscape being completely ingrained into society. I can't really escape recommender engines anymore when consuming media. If your exposure to media is curated since you were born, how are you going to tell if you're being deceived? It's pretty much the allegory of the cave.
padjo 7mo ago
This isn't really the moral dilemma you make it out to be.
lukan 7mo ago
"But what is the option?" Don't see money as the only goal? Otherwise it ain't black and white. There are forms of advertisment that are not so bad and there is a need for kill devices since there are lots of other existing kill devices. But this ad technology and this actual war ministry who take pride in revoking all "woke shit" like "rules of engagement" - I would not work for. There is other work, even if it pays less, but money ain't everything.
- Izikiel43 7mo ago
  > Don't see money as the only goal? That’s easy to say when you have money, it kind of sounds like “let them eat cake”
  - lukan 7mo ago
    Do you claim there are only unethical income choices? Or do you claim your expected standard of income comes only with unethical offers?
    - LunaSea 7mo ago
      I think that you can find something morally wrong with most companies or practices within these companies.
      - lukan 7mo ago
        Oh if you are looking for dirt, you can find dirt allmost anywhere, but im gemeral I do see a difference in making a website for a kindergarten, vs applying the most efficient tech to track and target children with manipulative ads.
        LunaSea 7mo ago
        Sure, but maybe you'll have to ad dark patterns, track users or create ad campaigns yourself for this kindergarten website. Maybe that kindergarten want to cut food and people costs to make more money. Which could lead to very real consequences for the kids as well.
pu_pe 7mo ago
Do you seriously believe that your only alternative is to work building ads or weapons?
Perseids 7mo ago
> But what is the option? I feel each of us wants to draw a line based off of our morality but the circumstances don't allow us to stick to it (still gotta pay rent) I was with you up to this point, but when you say "life is to hard to stay moral" I am thinking about how buying the wrong shampoo contributes to micro plastic in the ocean, or how buying a fitting jeans that is not exploiting labor is an extremely time intensive endeavor, or how avocados may be vegan but often produced unsustainable. Basically I thought you were making this point from The Good Place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lci6P1-jMV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lci6P1-jMV8 . But when you are working in IT, an industry that is generally still very well of, avoiding an employer that is actively making the world a worse place, is a low bar to cross. It's just one decision every few years, which also is comparatively easy to research (you are probably doing it as your normal preparation for the job interview anyway) and the impact of that decision is enormous in comparison to most other decisions you make, so it's well worth it to ponder a bit.
- LunaSea 7mo ago
  I think moral purity tests for work places is a delicate and tough question event for software development. Which work places would you feel are acceptable? What about a bank? They invest or loan money to weapons manufacturers. What about a renewable energy company? What if that company accepted investment with funds from Saudi Arabia / UAE / Qatar? Etc.
- stuartaxelowen 7mo ago
  Given the atomization and layering of work, this has become much harder to truly judge. Ten years ago I was excited to join a customer feedback platform - what could be better than helping companies understand their customers and provide better services and products? You can probably see where this is going, but inevitably the tools were just used to better tweak product profitability and eliminate end customer surplus, to the customer company’s benefit. And they were used by the likes of draft kings et al along with the Starbucks and Nikes of the world. I hear people claim that, in capitalism, no one hands are clean, and I am inclined to agree.
rhubarbtree 7mo ago
The option is to quit your job and go get a different one. It amazes me that people choose to work at Meta etc. I mean, it’s good for them, but they are choosing a bit more money whilst harming the rest of society. That’s a really bold move, to say that you just don’t care about other people.
- foobar_______ 7mo ago
  Agreed. You can quit. That is always an option. "Gotta pay the bills" is definitely valid for some small subset of the us population but that certainly doesn't apply to software engineers in a hub like the bay or seattle. These people delude themselves into thinking they "must" have their ridiculous Meta pay to pay for their $2.5M house and their current lifestyle. Golden handcuffs and turn the blind eye to what they are doing.
ImPostingOnHN 7mo ago
> So the ad tech I write gets shown to millions/billions. What about ads influencing elections and then politicians waging wars? Anti-vax ads which influence people and then kill them. Scam ads. Insurance ads and then people not getting cancer meds from the same insurance. Don't forget ICE and other government agencies using the bidstream data to track the location and behavior of immigrants, dissidents, etc, so they can be tracked down and arrested and sent to the gulag.
davedx 7mo ago
Hi, I work in edtech. There are hundreds of sectors and industries that don't have net negative effects on society and involve software development.

rokhayakebe 7mo ago

Well you cannot be responsible for adults' discernment or their critical thinking. If those same ads are being shown to children that would be different.

danielbarla 7mo ago
I don't see this as a binary thing. Legally we tend to draw a clear line between child and adult for pragmatic purposes, but I don't think my responsibility of intent disappears just because someone hits a magical number. I have steered clear of various gambling / "gaming" jobs which have had silly high salaries as a result; I don't in any way want to participate in things which are meant to play the weak points of the human psyche like a harp, for profit.
awesomeMilou 7mo ago
But they are? And it's a fallacy to assume that critical thinking is something that you're born with. In addition to the media landscape being completely ingrained into society. I can't really escape recommender engines anymore when consuming media. If your exposure to media is curated since you were born, how are you going to tell if you're being deceived? It's pretty much the allegory of the cave.

padjo 7mo ago

This isn't really the moral dilemma you make it out to be.

lukan 7mo ago

"But what is the option?" Don't see money as the only goal? Otherwise it ain't black and white. There are forms of advertisment that are not so bad and there is a need for kill devices since there are lots of other existing kill devices. But this ad technology and this actual war ministry who take pride in revoking all "woke shit" like "rules of engagement" - I would not work for. There is other work, even if it pays less, but money ain't everything.

Izikiel43 7mo ago
> Don't see money as the only goal? That’s easy to say when you have money, it kind of sounds like “let them eat cake”
- lukan 7mo ago
  Do you claim there are only unethical income choices? Or do you claim your expected standard of income comes only with unethical offers?
  - LunaSea 7mo ago
    I think that you can find something morally wrong with most companies or practices within these companies.
    - lukan 7mo ago
      Oh if you are looking for dirt, you can find dirt allmost anywhere, but im gemeral I do see a difference in making a website for a kindergarten, vs applying the most efficient tech to track and target children with manipulative ads.
      - LunaSea 7mo ago
        Sure, but maybe you'll have to ad dark patterns, track users or create ad campaigns yourself for this kindergarten website. Maybe that kindergarten want to cut food and people costs to make more money. Which could lead to very real consequences for the kids as well.

pu_pe 7mo ago

Do you seriously believe that your only alternative is to work building ads or weapons?

Perseids 7mo ago

> But what is the option? I feel each of us wants to draw a line based off of our morality but the circumstances don't allow us to stick to it (still gotta pay rent) I was with you up to this point, but when you say "life is to hard to stay moral" I am thinking about how buying the wrong shampoo contributes to micro plastic in the ocean, or how buying a fitting jeans that is not exploiting labor is an extremely time intensive endeavor, or how avocados may be vegan but often produced unsustainable. Basically I thought you were making this point from The Good Place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lci6P1-jMV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lci6P1-jMV8 . But when you are working in IT, an industry that is generally still very well of, avoiding an employer that is actively making the world a worse place, is a low bar to cross. It's just one decision every few years, which also is comparatively easy to research (you are probably doing it as your normal preparation for the job interview anyway) and the impact of that decision is enormous in comparison to most other decisions you make, so it's well worth it to ponder a bit.

LunaSea 7mo ago
I think moral purity tests for work places is a delicate and tough question event for software development. Which work places would you feel are acceptable? What about a bank? They invest or loan money to weapons manufacturers. What about a renewable energy company? What if that company accepted investment with funds from Saudi Arabia / UAE / Qatar? Etc.
stuartaxelowen 7mo ago
Given the atomization and layering of work, this has become much harder to truly judge. Ten years ago I was excited to join a customer feedback platform - what could be better than helping companies understand their customers and provide better services and products? You can probably see where this is going, but inevitably the tools were just used to better tweak product profitability and eliminate end customer surplus, to the customer company’s benefit. And they were used by the likes of draft kings et al along with the Starbucks and Nikes of the world. I hear people claim that, in capitalism, no one hands are clean, and I am inclined to agree.

rhubarbtree 7mo ago

The option is to quit your job and go get a different one. It amazes me that people choose to work at Meta etc. I mean, it’s good for them, but they are choosing a bit more money whilst harming the rest of society. That’s a really bold move, to say that you just don’t care about other people.

foobar_______ 7mo ago
Agreed. You can quit. That is always an option. "Gotta pay the bills" is definitely valid for some small subset of the us population but that certainly doesn't apply to software engineers in a hub like the bay or seattle. These people delude themselves into thinking they "must" have their ridiculous Meta pay to pay for their $2.5M house and their current lifestyle. Golden handcuffs and turn the blind eye to what they are doing.

ImPostingOnHN 7mo ago

> So the ad tech I write gets shown to millions/billions. What about ads influencing elections and then politicians waging wars? Anti-vax ads which influence people and then kill them. Scam ads. Insurance ads and then people not getting cancer meds from the same insurance. Don't forget ICE and other government agencies using the bidstream data to track the location and behavior of immigrants, dissidents, etc, so they can be tracked down and arrested and sent to the gulag.

davedx 7mo ago

Hi, I work in edtech. There are hundreds of sectors and industries that don't have net negative effects on society and involve software development.