5 ms·

Unsurprising. If you don't want to receive the punishment for thought crimes, which is being threatened outright more loudly every day, it's increasingly diffi

Unsurprising. If you don't want to receive the punishment for thought crimes, which is being threatened outright more loudly every day, it's increasingly difficult to actually have a dissenting voice online. Don't believe me? Set up a linux VM, Mullvad VPN with a killswitch, then run Tor browser. You MAY be able to get a TutaMail account, which requires a backup e-mail that disappears after a short period of time (allegedly), and then a Proton account with the TutaMail account as your required backup there, but all of the privacy-first "anonymous" services require some form of verification. Then, if the social media network isn't blocking you from signing up via a Tor exit nodes outright, you are immediately shadow banned. I remain very annoyed with the massive number of engineers that are making it possible for people who can't figure out how to check their e-mail to utilize advanced technology to spy on us, steal our tax money, pervert the technologies we build, and indiscriminately murder innocent people. We are a community of greedy ladder pullers and that's so disappointing.

emeril 7mo ago
I generally just use tor browser and proton (verified through a disposable email address only accessed via the tor browser) - seems secure enough for me? I use it often...
- jesse_dot_id 7mo ago
  How old are the accounts?
- fc417fc802 7mo ago
  > verified through a disposable email address To the extent it works that's a loophole. I can't speak to proton specifically but the majority of services don't want to permit disposable email because the entire point is to cut down on spam and abuse. I can appreciate having the option of providing a phone number or email or whatever but I think the state of the ecosystem is telling. The option for anonymous email with PoW per outgoing email isn't provided despite largely addressing the commonly cited rationale for requiring some sort of verification. And we're still stuck bashing PGP, shilling for competing E2E message solutions while it's plain as day that the vast majority of commerce isn't going to move off of email any time soon. Meanwhile TLS can figure out how to distribute public keys via DNS as part of implementing ECH in all major browsers over a period of less than a decade.
  - godelski 7mo ago
    While I don't use disposable emails I've been converting all my accounts to unique emails with either Firefox Relay[0] or using my personal website[1]. Bitwarden has made this easy as they let you import your Relay's API key and so every new site gets unique usernames and passwords[2]. It certainly is making it easier to block spam, and you get to know who is leaking your emails[3], and I've burned emails because of it. Frankly at this point the biggest problem is having a 20 year old gmail account. But the plus side of this type of system is that you can move your endpoint, so where Relay/CF directs the emails too, making you less reliant on your email provider[4]. There's pros and cons. On the plus side, unique identities for every site and by getting a catchall domain you can even generate valid addresses via pen and paper. Probably the biggest benefit is just searching emails. On the cons, document sharing can be a bigger pain than it already is (how is this still a pain all these years later?). Also, people get very confused when you tell them your email address is TheirCompanyName@godelski.mozmail.com (I don't actually have that domain, don't send emails there). It's helpful but I think represents a fundamental flaw in our ecosystem. > And we're still stuck bashing PGP I can't believe we haven't normalized this in the nerdy spaces, at least not to the degree of things like Signal. It is a thing that can be entirely automated and both Thunderbird and NeoMutt are able to handle this for you and make it effectively seamless. The average person does want this stuff, but they don't want to think about it. The problem is that they think their stuff is already private, or they say it can be spied on but that they're not worth spying on so they think it is effectively the same thing. [0] https://relay.firefox.com/ https://relay.firefox.com/ [1] Cloudflare will do email forwarding for you as will plenty of others: https://www.cloudflare.com/developer-platform/products/email-routing/ https://www.cloudflare.com/developer-platform/products/email... [2] What doesn't help is how prolific OAUTH is becoming. [3] Sorry, adding +something on your gmail won't work these days. [4] I'm actually looking. People say TutaMail but sorry, I need something I can use with either Thunderbird or NeoMutt... This is non-negotiable. Everyone has multiple email addresses these days and I'm not checking 30 different sites. The problem is already one of poor organization.
    - mschild 7mo ago
      I know its effecitvely a vendor lock-in and not what you are looking for but I love the SimpleLogin integration that Proton made with Proton Pass. I have it setup in my browser and phone. Whenever a website or app would like an email for an order or something else, it takes a single click to generate a named alias (using the website name) e Which forwards emails to my normal inbox. Replying to any received emails also uses the alias. The SimpleLogin interface could use some improvement though. Deleting unused ones is a bit tidious.
pixl97 7mo ago
>annoyed with the massive number of engineers that are making it possible Where you one that voted for laws that protected our privacy? Where you one that upvoted comments in forums that said software engineers needed a standard ethics? Where you one that downvoted every post saying we should have unions in software so we can protect ourselves as a group. Or were you greedy like the rest of us saying, I don't want any of those things because I can make more money without it. This is were the hunt for more money has taken us, and it only gets worse from here.
- logicchains 7mo ago
  >Where you one that downvoted every post saying we should have unions in software so we can protect ourselves as a group In other professions such unions inevitably end up building a chummy relationship with the government and going along with whatever it says, software engineering wouldn't be any different. If anything it'd be worse because the government could pressure the union into removing the license of engineers who make privacy-preserving software.
  - pixl97 7mo ago
    Right, because governments don't have other ways of forcing companies to do what they want anyway. Looks over at Anthropic
eth0up 7mo ago
>"it's increasingly difficult to actually have a dissenting voice online." If willing, I would appreciate some examples, actual or hypothetical. I have left a few comments regarding my concerns over AI and have been surprised by the hostile reactions. Much of my research kindof revolves around a central concern matching your statement. But my perspective is in a vacuum, out of touch with what others are dealing with. Feel free to ignore this if not comfortable.
- orangebread 7mo ago
  Don't apologize for your truth. A lot of people on reddit/HN fancy themselves as free-thinkers and the moment something contradicts their reality they reveal themselves to be as emotionally vulnerable as the rest of humanity.
  - scroogedhard 7mo ago
    [dead]
- zmgsabst 7mo ago
  It was already going downhill a decade ago, eg, using bad think on video games. But my personal experience is something snapped in a lot of people during COVID when people asked reasonable questions like — “is an experimental gene therapy really QALY positive in populations not at risk, such as healthy children?” According to government actuarial tables, the answer was no: the UK government concluded that there was no point at which for those under 40 the immunizations prevented more serious outcomes than they caused. But people were (and often still are) absolutely rabid if you point out we (in administering a QALY negative treatment to a vulnerable population) decided to poison children and young adults en masse. I’ve had people look up my mother on Facebook for calmly citing UK government actuarial reports, which did the calculation on COVID vs vaccine harms. That’s setting aside that on HN you’d get shadowbanned for even posting the clip of BLM leaders describing themselves as “trained Marxists” and BLM itself as Marxist in ideology. Apparently, no matter how politely you state facts, if HN froths irrationally in response it is an “inherent flamewar”. But I’m not sure I qualify for what you’re asking, as I generally post under my true identity, not anonymously.
jazz9k 7mo ago
[flagged]
Henchman21 7mo ago
I've said this a million times to people in this industry: we have a Real Problem with adderall, it's abuse, and the way it robs a person of their ability to feel empathy. Yes, you're a 10x engineer, yes you write amazing code, yes you can work and work and get. it. done. But you'll also be A-OK with dark patterns, just fine with spying on people who aren't you, and hell, you might even think building the first Terminator robots is an interesting project. Hyberbolic? Sure. But we live in a society that reinforces the idea that the performance enhancement is worth it. But there is a cost, and what you've described is it.
- kgwxd 7mo ago
  I've been on it, never once felt a lack of empathy, or forwent my principles. If that's happening to a person, it's likely a mask is just being lifted.
  - pasquinelli 7mo ago
    this is a statement you can't possibly be sure of and the fact you're making it shows a lack of reflection.
  - Henchman21 7mo ago
    It's absolutely a continuum, which implies to me there will be people with your experience. Of course, you may not have encountered a scenario where your principles were on the line! But then, I'd also agree there would be loads of cases where it is a mask being lifted, but isn't that the point? Is there a meaningful difference between "revealing one's true self" and "being robbed of an essential part of humanity" when the outcome results in the same antisocial behavior?
- pasquinelli 7mo ago
  i think it's silly to think we just need gooder coders with better morals. if the tech industry didn't do what it does it wouldn't enjoy the position in society it has.
- Aeglaecia 7mo ago
  if youre going against the regime of hyperpathologization please be strong and gentle. people dont want to have their pacifiers ripped out, whether that be by lifting the veil of hypercapitalistic coercion, or simply by making plain the wealth of side effects that can be entirely avoided by ignoring artificial diagnoses and seeking solutions more in line with our biology. like no shit people are going to be more willing to do the bidding of evil when their decision making apparatus is unnaturally saturated. and no shit people are going to have adhd symptoms in a screen based society. its completely obvious. but me saying that is going to get down voted to oblivion. people don't enjoy having a comfortable narrative questioned; dissent (no matter how minor) is equivalent to full scale assault on perceptions of existence. that being said, i dont blame anyone for this, considering that the entirety of existence is currently geared towards forcing the populace into fight or flight mode, thus rendering null the capacity to exact societal change and disrupt the status quo. people really do think their best interests are at the heart of billion dollar companies like those producing pharmaceutical goods !
otterley 7mo ago
Who in the Western world is being charged with, convicted of, and punished for “thought crimes”? Be specific, please.
- rileymat2 7mo ago
  It is a bit different than what we are discussing, but intent plays a huge role in Western justice. The same physical action can lead to vastly different outcomes. A high profile interesting example of this is the assassination attempt on Brett Kavanaugh. If you look at the details none of the actions would have been an attempt if not for the intent. It is an interesting thought experiment as to how many actions you have to take for a crime that you don’t commit to be charged as an attempt or more broadly as conspiracy and at what point people are allowed to change their mind. We see this in terrorism cases pretty frequently.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - otterley 7mo ago
    > The same physical action can lead to vastly different outcomes. Well, yeah, that’s kind of obvious once you realize that tools can be used for multiple purposes. A hammer can be used to pound both nails (legal) and smash a person’s head in (not). But the notion that “thought crimes” where people are being punished merely for their feelings and where no act in furtherance of the outcome has taken place is just baloney. At least in the West.
- jesse_dot_id 7mo ago
  Well currently, it's people being denied entry or re-entry to the United States due to the content of their social media accounts. Also, people getting door-knocked by the FBI for making posts on Reddit. Historically, there won't be trials for this when it gets worse, so there won't be anyone charged or convicted. They will eventually just be murdered by a secret police force.
  - 7mo ago

emeril 7mo ago

I generally just use tor browser and proton (verified through a disposable email address only accessed via the tor browser) - seems secure enough for me? I use it often...

jesse_dot_id 7mo ago
How old are the accounts?
fc417fc802 7mo ago
> verified through a disposable email address To the extent it works that's a loophole. I can't speak to proton specifically but the majority of services don't want to permit disposable email because the entire point is to cut down on spam and abuse. I can appreciate having the option of providing a phone number or email or whatever but I think the state of the ecosystem is telling. The option for anonymous email with PoW per outgoing email isn't provided despite largely addressing the commonly cited rationale for requiring some sort of verification. And we're still stuck bashing PGP, shilling for competing E2E message solutions while it's plain as day that the vast majority of commerce isn't going to move off of email any time soon. Meanwhile TLS can figure out how to distribute public keys via DNS as part of implementing ECH in all major browsers over a period of less than a decade.
- godelski 7mo ago
  While I don't use disposable emails I've been converting all my accounts to unique emails with either Firefox Relay[0] or using my personal website[1]. Bitwarden has made this easy as they let you import your Relay's API key and so every new site gets unique usernames and passwords[2]. It certainly is making it easier to block spam, and you get to know who is leaking your emails[3], and I've burned emails because of it. Frankly at this point the biggest problem is having a 20 year old gmail account. But the plus side of this type of system is that you can move your endpoint, so where Relay/CF directs the emails too, making you less reliant on your email provider[4]. There's pros and cons. On the plus side, unique identities for every site and by getting a catchall domain you can even generate valid addresses via pen and paper. Probably the biggest benefit is just searching emails. On the cons, document sharing can be a bigger pain than it already is (how is this still a pain all these years later?). Also, people get very confused when you tell them your email address is TheirCompanyName@godelski.mozmail.com (I don't actually have that domain, don't send emails there). It's helpful but I think represents a fundamental flaw in our ecosystem. > And we're still stuck bashing PGP I can't believe we haven't normalized this in the nerdy spaces, at least not to the degree of things like Signal. It is a thing that can be entirely automated and both Thunderbird and NeoMutt are able to handle this for you and make it effectively seamless. The average person does want this stuff, but they don't want to think about it. The problem is that they think their stuff is already private, or they say it can be spied on but that they're not worth spying on so they think it is effectively the same thing. [0] https://relay.firefox.com/ https://relay.firefox.com/ [1] Cloudflare will do email forwarding for you as will plenty of others: https://www.cloudflare.com/developer-platform/products/email-routing/ https://www.cloudflare.com/developer-platform/products/email... [2] What doesn't help is how prolific OAUTH is becoming. [3] Sorry, adding +something on your gmail won't work these days. [4] I'm actually looking. People say TutaMail but sorry, I need something I can use with either Thunderbird or NeoMutt... This is non-negotiable. Everyone has multiple email addresses these days and I'm not checking 30 different sites. The problem is already one of poor organization.
  - mschild 7mo ago
    I know its effecitvely a vendor lock-in and not what you are looking for but I love the SimpleLogin integration that Proton made with Proton Pass. I have it setup in my browser and phone. Whenever a website or app would like an email for an order or something else, it takes a single click to generate a named alias (using the website name) e Which forwards emails to my normal inbox. Replying to any received emails also uses the alias. The SimpleLogin interface could use some improvement though. Deleting unused ones is a bit tidious.

pixl97 7mo ago

>annoyed with the massive number of engineers that are making it possible Where you one that voted for laws that protected our privacy? Where you one that upvoted comments in forums that said software engineers needed a standard ethics? Where you one that downvoted every post saying we should have unions in software so we can protect ourselves as a group. Or were you greedy like the rest of us saying, I don't want any of those things because I can make more money without it. This is were the hunt for more money has taken us, and it only gets worse from here.

logicchains 7mo ago
>Where you one that downvoted every post saying we should have unions in software so we can protect ourselves as a group In other professions such unions inevitably end up building a chummy relationship with the government and going along with whatever it says, software engineering wouldn't be any different. If anything it'd be worse because the government could pressure the union into removing the license of engineers who make privacy-preserving software.
- pixl97 7mo ago
  Right, because governments don't have other ways of forcing companies to do what they want anyway. Looks over at Anthropic

eth0up 7mo ago

>"it's increasingly difficult to actually have a dissenting voice online." If willing, I would appreciate some examples, actual or hypothetical. I have left a few comments regarding my concerns over AI and have been surprised by the hostile reactions. Much of my research kindof revolves around a central concern matching your statement. But my perspective is in a vacuum, out of touch with what others are dealing with. Feel free to ignore this if not comfortable.

orangebread 7mo ago
Don't apologize for your truth. A lot of people on reddit/HN fancy themselves as free-thinkers and the moment something contradicts their reality they reveal themselves to be as emotionally vulnerable as the rest of humanity.
- scroogedhard 7mo ago
  [dead]
zmgsabst 7mo ago
It was already going downhill a decade ago, eg, using bad think on video games. But my personal experience is something snapped in a lot of people during COVID when people asked reasonable questions like — “is an experimental gene therapy really QALY positive in populations not at risk, such as healthy children?” According to government actuarial tables, the answer was no: the UK government concluded that there was no point at which for those under 40 the immunizations prevented more serious outcomes than they caused. But people were (and often still are) absolutely rabid if you point out we (in administering a QALY negative treatment to a vulnerable population) decided to poison children and young adults en masse. I’ve had people look up my mother on Facebook for calmly citing UK government actuarial reports, which did the calculation on COVID vs vaccine harms. That’s setting aside that on HN you’d get shadowbanned for even posting the clip of BLM leaders describing themselves as “trained Marxists” and BLM itself as Marxist in ideology. Apparently, no matter how politely you state facts, if HN froths irrationally in response it is an “inherent flamewar”. But I’m not sure I qualify for what you’re asking, as I generally post under my true identity, not anonymously.

jazz9k 7mo ago

[flagged]

Henchman21 7mo ago

I've said this a million times to people in this industry: we have a Real Problem with adderall, it's abuse, and the way it robs a person of their ability to feel empathy. Yes, you're a 10x engineer, yes you write amazing code, yes you can work and work and get. it. done. But you'll also be A-OK with dark patterns, just fine with spying on people who aren't you, and hell, you might even think building the first Terminator robots is an interesting project. Hyberbolic? Sure. But we live in a society that reinforces the idea that the performance enhancement is worth it. But there is a cost, and what you've described is it.

kgwxd 7mo ago
I've been on it, never once felt a lack of empathy, or forwent my principles. If that's happening to a person, it's likely a mask is just being lifted.
- pasquinelli 7mo ago
  this is a statement you can't possibly be sure of and the fact you're making it shows a lack of reflection.
- Henchman21 7mo ago
  It's absolutely a continuum, which implies to me there will be people with your experience. Of course, you may not have encountered a scenario where your principles were on the line! But then, I'd also agree there would be loads of cases where it is a mask being lifted, but isn't that the point? Is there a meaningful difference between "revealing one's true self" and "being robbed of an essential part of humanity" when the outcome results in the same antisocial behavior?
pasquinelli 7mo ago
i think it's silly to think we just need gooder coders with better morals. if the tech industry didn't do what it does it wouldn't enjoy the position in society it has.
Aeglaecia 7mo ago
if youre going against the regime of hyperpathologization please be strong and gentle. people dont want to have their pacifiers ripped out, whether that be by lifting the veil of hypercapitalistic coercion, or simply by making plain the wealth of side effects that can be entirely avoided by ignoring artificial diagnoses and seeking solutions more in line with our biology. like no shit people are going to be more willing to do the bidding of evil when their decision making apparatus is unnaturally saturated. and no shit people are going to have adhd symptoms in a screen based society. its completely obvious. but me saying that is going to get down voted to oblivion. people don't enjoy having a comfortable narrative questioned; dissent (no matter how minor) is equivalent to full scale assault on perceptions of existence. that being said, i dont blame anyone for this, considering that the entirety of existence is currently geared towards forcing the populace into fight or flight mode, thus rendering null the capacity to exact societal change and disrupt the status quo. people really do think their best interests are at the heart of billion dollar companies like those producing pharmaceutical goods !

otterley 7mo ago

Who in the Western world is being charged with, convicted of, and punished for “thought crimes”? Be specific, please.

rileymat2 7mo ago
It is a bit different than what we are discussing, but intent plays a huge role in Western justice. The same physical action can lead to vastly different outcomes. A high profile interesting example of this is the assassination attempt on Brett Kavanaugh. If you look at the details none of the actions would have been an attempt if not for the intent. It is an interesting thought experiment as to how many actions you have to take for a crime that you don’t commit to be charged as an attempt or more broadly as conspiracy and at what point people are allowed to change their mind. We see this in terrorism cases pretty frequently.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- otterley 7mo ago
  > The same physical action can lead to vastly different outcomes. Well, yeah, that’s kind of obvious once you realize that tools can be used for multiple purposes. A hammer can be used to pound both nails (legal) and smash a person’s head in (not). But the notion that “thought crimes” where people are being punished merely for their feelings and where no act in furtherance of the outcome has taken place is just baloney. At least in the West.
jesse_dot_id 7mo ago
Well currently, it's people being denied entry or re-entry to the United States due to the content of their social media accounts. Also, people getting door-knocked by the FBI for making posts on Reddit. Historically, there won't be trials for this when it gets worse, so there won't be anyone charged or convicted. They will eventually just be murdered by a secret police force.
- 7mo ago