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> Didn't Proton already say that they were physically relocating their servers outside of Switzerland because the Swiss government couldn't be trusted? They sa

by elashri 7mo ago

> Didn't Proton already say that they were physically relocating their servers outside of Switzerland because the Swiss government couldn't be trusted? They said they want to relocate to Germany which I would say in a polite way, is much worse in this regard.

spelk 7mo ago
In what sense? Germany has among the strongest judicial oversight for invasion of privacy in Europe. Due process is followed when securing search warrants that provide access to subscriber data (Germany does not have administrative subpoenas like in the US and other countries). Former attempts at surveillance have been struck down in the Bundesverfassungsgericht, and the right to privacy has even been affirmed for foreigners (as opposed to other countries like the US that reserve that foreign nationals have zero due process rights for invasion of privacy).
- wolvoleo 7mo ago
  Germany has strong privacy protections against businesses. But not against the state as they consider themselves above suspicion.
  - spelk 7mo ago
    Is this a gut feeling, or is there a basis for this claim? My comment referenced solely due process in relation to the state.
    - wolvoleo 7mo ago
      Yes I've seen many news items about laws being introduced that were pretty invasive. https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/06/24/germanys-new-surveillance-laws-raise-privacy-concerns https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/06/24/germanys-new-surveillanc... https://www.heise.de/news/Ausweispruefung-bei-Prepaid-SIMs-Neues-Anti-Terror-Paket-in-Kraft-3283227.html https://www.heise.de/news/Ausweispruefung-bei-Prepaid-SIMs-N... https://netzpolitik.org/2016/projekt-aniski-wie-der-bnd-mit-150-millionen-euro-messenger-wie-whatsapp-entschluesseln-will/#PANOS https://netzpolitik.org/2016/projekt-aniski-wie-der-bnd-mit-...
      - brookst 7mo ago
        Introduced or passed into law?
      - ulfw 7mo ago
        What does having to show an ID when registering a SIM card have to do with privacy of emails?
        wolvoleo 7mo ago
        I'm talking about digital privacy in general. In many countries (like in Holland) this is not a requirement. Also Germany was a big proponent of ChatControl, until they swerved at the last minute. Holland was against it every time.
  - dash2 7mo ago
    [flagged]
    - whilenot-dev 7mo ago
      Instead of posting "I googled sources and can confirm" please post your sources so everybody can confirm.
      - dash2 7mo ago
        I do not think it is too much to ask someone to type “German court strikes down surveillance“ into Google. Here is the link though: https://www.google.com/search?q=German+court+strikes+down+surveillance&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#lfId=ChxjMe https://www.google.com/search?q=German+court+strikes+down+su...
  - vanderZwan 7mo ago
    > But not against the state as they consider themselves above suspicion. That's a statement that I expect to infuriate just about everyone who lived in Eastern Germany, how do they get away with that argument?
- RandomGerm4n 7mo ago
  Germany is an absolutely terrible choice for this. Other Email providers such as Tuta which also offer encrypted emails, were forced to install a backdoor. As soon as the police arrive, every future email sent to the account in question is copied unencrypted without the person being informed. This is much worse than passing on payment details or stored backup email addresses, as Proton Mail is required to do in Switzerland.
  - piaste 7mo ago
    > Other Email providers such as Tuta which also offer encrypted emails, were forced to install a backdoor. As soon as the police arrive, every future email sent to the account in question is copied unencrypted without the person being informed. Important caveat: Tuta was required by a court to provide police with access to a customer's _unencrypted_ emails (ie regular SMTP mail). The police had also asked for a backdoor to Tuta's E2E emails, and that request was rejected by the courts.
    - RandomGerm4n 7mo ago
      But the idea behind Tuta and Proton is that emails are encrypted when they arrive in the inbox. The fact that emails sent between Tuta users are still safe offer little added value because distribution is far too limited. The reason people choose such a provider is that they do not want the authorities to have access to their mailbox, but this is undermined by a backdoor. Switzerland is much better off in terms of the legal situation in this area.
- coldtea 7mo ago
  In the sense that it's a joke that caves in to the flimsiest pressure from a certain superpower. Although pressure is a bad choice, it's more like it's a wholy owned subsidy.

by elashri 7mo ago

spelk 7mo ago

In what sense? Germany has among the strongest judicial oversight for invasion of privacy in Europe. Due process is followed when securing search warrants that provide access to subscriber data (Germany does not have administrative subpoenas like in the US and other countries). Former attempts at surveillance have been struck down in the Bundesverfassungsgericht, and the right to privacy has even been affirmed for foreigners (as opposed to other countries like the US that reserve that foreign nationals have zero due process rights for invasion of privacy).

wolvoleo 7mo ago
Germany has strong privacy protections against businesses. But not against the state as they consider themselves above suspicion.
- spelk 7mo ago
  Is this a gut feeling, or is there a basis for this claim? My comment referenced solely due process in relation to the state.
  - wolvoleo 7mo ago
    Yes I've seen many news items about laws being introduced that were pretty invasive. https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/06/24/germanys-new-surveillance-laws-raise-privacy-concerns https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/06/24/germanys-new-surveillanc... https://www.heise.de/news/Ausweispruefung-bei-Prepaid-SIMs-Neues-Anti-Terror-Paket-in-Kraft-3283227.html https://www.heise.de/news/Ausweispruefung-bei-Prepaid-SIMs-N... https://netzpolitik.org/2016/projekt-aniski-wie-der-bnd-mit-150-millionen-euro-messenger-wie-whatsapp-entschluesseln-will/#PANOS https://netzpolitik.org/2016/projekt-aniski-wie-der-bnd-mit-...
    - brookst 7mo ago
      Introduced or passed into law?
    - ulfw 7mo ago
      What does having to show an ID when registering a SIM card have to do with privacy of emails?
      - wolvoleo 7mo ago
        I'm talking about digital privacy in general. In many countries (like in Holland) this is not a requirement. Also Germany was a big proponent of ChatControl, until they swerved at the last minute. Holland was against it every time.
- dash2 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - whilenot-dev 7mo ago
    Instead of posting "I googled sources and can confirm" please post your sources so everybody can confirm.
    - dash2 7mo ago
      I do not think it is too much to ask someone to type “German court strikes down surveillance“ into Google. Here is the link though: https://www.google.com/search?q=German+court+strikes+down+surveillance&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#lfId=ChxjMe https://www.google.com/search?q=German+court+strikes+down+su...
- vanderZwan 7mo ago
  > But not against the state as they consider themselves above suspicion. That's a statement that I expect to infuriate just about everyone who lived in Eastern Germany, how do they get away with that argument?
RandomGerm4n 7mo ago
Germany is an absolutely terrible choice for this. Other Email providers such as Tuta which also offer encrypted emails, were forced to install a backdoor. As soon as the police arrive, every future email sent to the account in question is copied unencrypted without the person being informed. This is much worse than passing on payment details or stored backup email addresses, as Proton Mail is required to do in Switzerland.
- piaste 7mo ago
  > Other Email providers such as Tuta which also offer encrypted emails, were forced to install a backdoor. As soon as the police arrive, every future email sent to the account in question is copied unencrypted without the person being informed. Important caveat: Tuta was required by a court to provide police with access to a customer's _unencrypted_ emails (ie regular SMTP mail). The police had also asked for a backdoor to Tuta's E2E emails, and that request was rejected by the courts.
  - RandomGerm4n 7mo ago
    But the idea behind Tuta and Proton is that emails are encrypted when they arrive in the inbox. The fact that emails sent between Tuta users are still safe offer little added value because distribution is far too limited. The reason people choose such a provider is that they do not want the authorities to have access to their mailbox, but this is undermined by a backdoor. Switzerland is much better off in terms of the legal situation in this area.
coldtea 7mo ago
In the sense that it's a joke that caves in to the flimsiest pressure from a certain superpower. Although pressure is a bad choice, it's more like it's a wholy owned subsidy.