4 ms·

A bit ironic for a European to say Iran is trying to colonize the world.

by cherry_tree 7mo ago

spwa4 7mo ago
[flagged]
- krapp 7mo ago
  It still counts as colonizing if someone else colonized it before you did.
  - spwa4 7mo ago
    Also for "someone else", or just for Europeans?
    - krapp 7mo ago
      "Someone else" colonizing a place or culture doesn't negate the effect of further European colonization, nor does it justify it. Africa, Asia and the Middle East were very obviously colonized by Europeans. The phrase "the sun never sets on the British empire" exists for a reason. Many national borders still exist because of the British Empire. Western civilization rests on a foundation of a thousand years of Christian conquest, rape, slavery and the plunder of far more land and peoples than any Islamic power ever accomplished. Being particularly precious or indignant about that is just childish. It is what it is.
      - spwa4 7mo ago
        Slavery? You want to talk slavery? > Western civilization rests on a foundation of a thousand years of Christian conquest, rape, slavery Which is not special. So does everything from the Hindu kingdoms, to Chinese piracy, and especially muslim civilization(s). I've actually visited Zanzibar and Australia, seen the worst of "Christian" slavery, and normal islamic slavery (and let's just ignore that the worst slavery happened in the parts of Christian civilization that were trying hard to get rid of Christianity, whereas in the "core" of Christianity slavery was eliminated by 800AD, in fact as I'll point out below, that Christianity did this is a major reason for the creation of islam in the first place). No part of Christian civilization was remotely as bad as islamic slavery. Not even what happened in the Roman Empire with "judicial" slaves if you know what that is. Not even close. They are quite simply not comparable. EVEN Ancient Romans paid slaves that they raped ... a muslim "country" set up slave-rape houses in 2023 (ISIS/islamic state). Nearly all of the women they did that to never got anything, and most are now dead (they massacred them on their way out, like the Nazis). One such girl was bought by and abused in a muslim family and recovered and freed during Israel's war on Gaza. She was 12 when muslims locked her up in a brothel to be constantly raped, and the reason they gave for doing that? The prophet said allah allows them to do that, she was STILL not an adult when she was rescued. Do you know that islamic holy texts (the hadith) actually contain discussions where early muslims complain that "even in the provinces" (they mean ... of the Eastern Roman Empire) it is becoming hard to buy a slave girl to rape due to Christian missionaries? Along with MANY discussions on using slaves for sex, even including advice on ... let's say, on how to have fun with that. You know one such way to have fun? "Thighing". Let me give you one piece of advice: DO NOT look up what that particular muslim practice is, and why it "is advised" (because kids die from bleeding out if you ...). It is a level of depravity that even serial-killer rapists never sunk to. Defending islam with colonization and slavery in Christanity is utter lunacy, because for every badly treated slave in Christianity there's 100 in islamic empires. Slaves were treated better (not good, I don't claim that, but far, far better) in Christianity. Sorry but let's put it plainly: when it comes to slavery and inequality, islam really is just the worst of the worst (certainly if you demand a certain size). And yes, I get it, the US has a history with slavery that you're ashamed of. It's a big part of how the US state formed, and Washington sees eliminating slavery as a big part of the reason they get to exist, and they're ashamed of their part in it, I get it. But that doesn't change reality: every other part of the world, EXCEPT western Europe ever since Christianity came to power, also has a history of slavery, and they basically lie about it. The middle east is not ashamed of slavery, even the US allies, they're trying to bring it back. Just read about how they organized the olympics. And of course there's the fact that the only reason muslims stopped slavery is because Western Europe and America forced them to, at the point of a gun. If Christians carry guilt for what happened, muslims carry 100x that guilt, and everyone else does too, in various amounts (and generally a lot less than muslims). Christian civilization is not the only one that eliminated slavery, but it is not at all a common thing. So no, it's not all the same. Christianity has spend millennia eliminating slavery. Christinaity MADE muslims give up slavery, and only under threat of Christian killing of entire muslim states did they give in. Islam has spent it's entire existence, right from the beginning up to today, fighting to bring it back.
- Tostino 7mo ago
  "Europeans never actually colonized anything but America." The British colonized India, Australia, Hong Kong, and half the Middle East. France held Indochina, Algeria, and most of West Africa. The Dutch ran Indonesia for 350 years. Belgium's Congo is one of the most documented atrocities in modern history. Portugal colonized Mozambique, Angola, Goa, and Macau. The Scramble for Africa carved up nearly the entire continent among European states at the Berlin Conference of 1884. That's not obscure history. You can make your point about Iran without pretending none of this happened.
  - spwa4 7mo ago
    If you look up history more accurately you'll find this isn't true. Or at least, it's not the whole story. Europeans took over India from muslim conquerors. Same with most of the places you mention. European colonization is the reason slavery stopped in those places. Hong Kong never had slaves, and if you talk with people now they'll be pretty unanimous in that Hong Kong, the colony, was a better place than it is now. That was what muslims did in Africa, btw, better known as "black gold". Meaning for a millenium all muslim economies were 100% built on exploitation of slaves. And three guesses why it was called "black" gold ... Oh and it wasn't one state. Muslims massacred their own empires out of existence every 2 centuries or so. But every empire they had was built on slavery. The first ("the propet" was a slaver and a slavetrader. In case you don't know: slaver means he invaded villages and killed people until the rest accepted to become slaves), the last, and every one in between. Oh and a question: What is Hong Kong now? Because it isn't free. And yet, somehow, it's not called a Chinese colony? Why not? That's what it is, and it's worse than it was as a British colony.
- gravisultra 7mo ago
  Palestine, South Africa, Vietnam...
  - spwa4 7mo ago
    Israel/Judaea/Samaria was colonized by Rome, twice (and they were hardly the first, ancient Egypt colonized Israel too, and abandoned it, so did the Babylonians). The first time, for Romans, by Pompei. Then, where the name comes from: Julius Caesar (yes, that guy) had to come back after the Jews revolted. So he beat them, again, and what did he do? He asked his court what the most insulting name would be for the Jews' land. Palestine was the answer. He then deported 2/3 of the population, creating the Jewish diaspora. Palestine back then referred to some ruins, ironically once located almost in Gaza (but long destroyed by muslims), left by pirates that lived there that were famous for getting the choice from Rome: either stop attacking Roman vessels or be exterminated to the last man, woman, and child. They chose extermination, and to make matters worse, they attacked 3 Roman vessels and killed the child of ... I forgot, but one of the main Senators, as their way of refusing the Roman offer. Like I said, it's one of the very few places where the Roman chose to exterminate the local population. Not much is known about the actual Palestinians, because muslims destroyed the evidence. The name was associated in the Roman Empire with violence to the point of stupidity. Violence, in the sense of fighting until death, not out of bravery, but out of shear stupidity, until things end very badly for everyone involved. All of this happened 700 years before islam ever existed. That name stuck, because muslims merely conquered the Eastern Roman Empire, they didn't really change things, not even the names. The British named it "Mandate Palestine" (which is why, ironically, the eldest road signs in Israel are English + Hebrew, and only the modern state Israel chose to add arabic to the road signs). The British divided historical Israel into Palestina Transjordan and Palestina. This is why, when Israel became independent, the Jews chose to rename Palestine to Israel. Although when time came for the Soviet Agent Yasser Arafat El-Masri (arabic for "the Wise Egyptian") to choose a name, he picked "Palestinians", no doubt adding further insult to Jews by adopting the name Palestine to steal the identity of the Jews, and to fake history. Because of course, the name "Palestinians" before 1970 or so refers to Jews living in Israel, which is cynically exploited these days by pointing at historical documents pointing out "Palestinians" lived in Israel in, say, 1000AD. True, of course, but they were (majority) Jewish and spoke Hebrew, but yes, that group was then called Palestinians. Or they say that Israeli Politicians had "Palestinian passports" (true, of course, as Britain issued passports in that name, and never is asked or answered why the 1970s Black September/PLO Palestinians, for example Arafat, DID NOT have such a passport ...) South Africa was indeed settled by Europeans, the Dutch (the difference with colonizing being when the Dutch arrived, there was nobody there, or at least that's what their books say). The islamic empires colonized as far as Zanzibar, but not quite South Africa. They did organize slave raids into South Africa but never conquered it (the reason has to do with how slavery works in islam), in fact fighting Islamic slave raids is why the 2 South African kingdoms (in the mountains, not really close to the Dutch colony) were created. Vietnam was colonized by Chinese kingdoms at least twice (and abandoned at least twice) before the Europeans arrived.

A bit ironic for a European to say Iran is trying to colonize the world.

spwa4 7mo ago

[flagged]

krapp 7mo ago
It still counts as colonizing if someone else colonized it before you did.
- spwa4 7mo ago
  Also for "someone else", or just for Europeans?
  - krapp 7mo ago
    "Someone else" colonizing a place or culture doesn't negate the effect of further European colonization, nor does it justify it. Africa, Asia and the Middle East were very obviously colonized by Europeans. The phrase "the sun never sets on the British empire" exists for a reason. Many national borders still exist because of the British Empire. Western civilization rests on a foundation of a thousand years of Christian conquest, rape, slavery and the plunder of far more land and peoples than any Islamic power ever accomplished. Being particularly precious or indignant about that is just childish. It is what it is.
    - spwa4 7mo ago
      Slavery? You want to talk slavery? > Western civilization rests on a foundation of a thousand years of Christian conquest, rape, slavery Which is not special. So does everything from the Hindu kingdoms, to Chinese piracy, and especially muslim civilization(s). I've actually visited Zanzibar and Australia, seen the worst of "Christian" slavery, and normal islamic slavery (and let's just ignore that the worst slavery happened in the parts of Christian civilization that were trying hard to get rid of Christianity, whereas in the "core" of Christianity slavery was eliminated by 800AD, in fact as I'll point out below, that Christianity did this is a major reason for the creation of islam in the first place). No part of Christian civilization was remotely as bad as islamic slavery. Not even what happened in the Roman Empire with "judicial" slaves if you know what that is. Not even close. They are quite simply not comparable. EVEN Ancient Romans paid slaves that they raped ... a muslim "country" set up slave-rape houses in 2023 (ISIS/islamic state). Nearly all of the women they did that to never got anything, and most are now dead (they massacred them on their way out, like the Nazis). One such girl was bought by and abused in a muslim family and recovered and freed during Israel's war on Gaza. She was 12 when muslims locked her up in a brothel to be constantly raped, and the reason they gave for doing that? The prophet said allah allows them to do that, she was STILL not an adult when she was rescued. Do you know that islamic holy texts (the hadith) actually contain discussions where early muslims complain that "even in the provinces" (they mean ... of the Eastern Roman Empire) it is becoming hard to buy a slave girl to rape due to Christian missionaries? Along with MANY discussions on using slaves for sex, even including advice on ... let's say, on how to have fun with that. You know one such way to have fun? "Thighing". Let me give you one piece of advice: DO NOT look up what that particular muslim practice is, and why it "is advised" (because kids die from bleeding out if you ...). It is a level of depravity that even serial-killer rapists never sunk to. Defending islam with colonization and slavery in Christanity is utter lunacy, because for every badly treated slave in Christianity there's 100 in islamic empires. Slaves were treated better (not good, I don't claim that, but far, far better) in Christianity. Sorry but let's put it plainly: when it comes to slavery and inequality, islam really is just the worst of the worst (certainly if you demand a certain size). And yes, I get it, the US has a history with slavery that you're ashamed of. It's a big part of how the US state formed, and Washington sees eliminating slavery as a big part of the reason they get to exist, and they're ashamed of their part in it, I get it. But that doesn't change reality: every other part of the world, EXCEPT western Europe ever since Christianity came to power, also has a history of slavery, and they basically lie about it. The middle east is not ashamed of slavery, even the US allies, they're trying to bring it back. Just read about how they organized the olympics. And of course there's the fact that the only reason muslims stopped slavery is because Western Europe and America forced them to, at the point of a gun. If Christians carry guilt for what happened, muslims carry 100x that guilt, and everyone else does too, in various amounts (and generally a lot less than muslims). Christian civilization is not the only one that eliminated slavery, but it is not at all a common thing. So no, it's not all the same. Christianity has spend millennia eliminating slavery. Christinaity MADE muslims give up slavery, and only under threat of Christian killing of entire muslim states did they give in. Islam has spent it's entire existence, right from the beginning up to today, fighting to bring it back.
Tostino 7mo ago
"Europeans never actually colonized anything but America." The British colonized India, Australia, Hong Kong, and half the Middle East. France held Indochina, Algeria, and most of West Africa. The Dutch ran Indonesia for 350 years. Belgium's Congo is one of the most documented atrocities in modern history. Portugal colonized Mozambique, Angola, Goa, and Macau. The Scramble for Africa carved up nearly the entire continent among European states at the Berlin Conference of 1884. That's not obscure history. You can make your point about Iran without pretending none of this happened.
- spwa4 7mo ago
  If you look up history more accurately you'll find this isn't true. Or at least, it's not the whole story. Europeans took over India from muslim conquerors. Same with most of the places you mention. European colonization is the reason slavery stopped in those places. Hong Kong never had slaves, and if you talk with people now they'll be pretty unanimous in that Hong Kong, the colony, was a better place than it is now. That was what muslims did in Africa, btw, better known as "black gold". Meaning for a millenium all muslim economies were 100% built on exploitation of slaves. And three guesses why it was called "black" gold ... Oh and it wasn't one state. Muslims massacred their own empires out of existence every 2 centuries or so. But every empire they had was built on slavery. The first ("the propet" was a slaver and a slavetrader. In case you don't know: slaver means he invaded villages and killed people until the rest accepted to become slaves), the last, and every one in between. Oh and a question: What is Hong Kong now? Because it isn't free. And yet, somehow, it's not called a Chinese colony? Why not? That's what it is, and it's worse than it was as a British colony.
gravisultra 7mo ago
Palestine, South Africa, Vietnam...
- spwa4 7mo ago
  Israel/Judaea/Samaria was colonized by Rome, twice (and they were hardly the first, ancient Egypt colonized Israel too, and abandoned it, so did the Babylonians). The first time, for Romans, by Pompei. Then, where the name comes from: Julius Caesar (yes, that guy) had to come back after the Jews revolted. So he beat them, again, and what did he do? He asked his court what the most insulting name would be for the Jews' land. Palestine was the answer. He then deported 2/3 of the population, creating the Jewish diaspora. Palestine back then referred to some ruins, ironically once located almost in Gaza (but long destroyed by muslims), left by pirates that lived there that were famous for getting the choice from Rome: either stop attacking Roman vessels or be exterminated to the last man, woman, and child. They chose extermination, and to make matters worse, they attacked 3 Roman vessels and killed the child of ... I forgot, but one of the main Senators, as their way of refusing the Roman offer. Like I said, it's one of the very few places where the Roman chose to exterminate the local population. Not much is known about the actual Palestinians, because muslims destroyed the evidence. The name was associated in the Roman Empire with violence to the point of stupidity. Violence, in the sense of fighting until death, not out of bravery, but out of shear stupidity, until things end very badly for everyone involved. All of this happened 700 years before islam ever existed. That name stuck, because muslims merely conquered the Eastern Roman Empire, they didn't really change things, not even the names. The British named it "Mandate Palestine" (which is why, ironically, the eldest road signs in Israel are English + Hebrew, and only the modern state Israel chose to add arabic to the road signs). The British divided historical Israel into Palestina Transjordan and Palestina. This is why, when Israel became independent, the Jews chose to rename Palestine to Israel. Although when time came for the Soviet Agent Yasser Arafat El-Masri (arabic for "the Wise Egyptian") to choose a name, he picked "Palestinians", no doubt adding further insult to Jews by adopting the name Palestine to steal the identity of the Jews, and to fake history. Because of course, the name "Palestinians" before 1970 or so refers to Jews living in Israel, which is cynically exploited these days by pointing at historical documents pointing out "Palestinians" lived in Israel in, say, 1000AD. True, of course, but they were (majority) Jewish and spoke Hebrew, but yes, that group was then called Palestinians. Or they say that Israeli Politicians had "Palestinian passports" (true, of course, as Britain issued passports in that name, and never is asked or answered why the 1970s Black September/PLO Palestinians, for example Arafat, DID NOT have such a passport ...) South Africa was indeed settled by Europeans, the Dutch (the difference with colonizing being when the Dutch arrived, there was nobody there, or at least that's what their books say). The islamic empires colonized as far as Zanzibar, but not quite South Africa. They did organize slave raids into South Africa but never conquered it (the reason has to do with how slavery works in islam), in fact fighting Islamic slave raids is why the 2 South African kingdoms (in the mountains, not really close to the Dutch colony) were created. Vietnam was colonized by Chinese kingdoms at least twice (and abandoned at least twice) before the Europeans arrived.