4 ms·

Procedural generation underlies the most popular game of all time (Minecraft) and is foundational for numerous other games of a similar type - Dwarf Fortress, e

by bombcar 8mo ago

Procedural generation underlies the most popular game of all time (Minecraft) and is foundational for numerous other games of a similar type - Dwarf Fortress, et al. And it's used to power effect where you might not expect it (Stardew Valley mines). What procedural generation does NOT work at is generating "story elements" though perhaps even that can fall, Dwarf Fortress already does decently enough given that the player will fill in the blanks.

optionalsquid 8mo ago
> And it's used to power effect where you might not expect it (Stardew Valley mines). Apparently Stardew Valley's mines are not procedurally generated, but rather hand-crafted. Per their recent 10 year anniversary video, the developer did try to implement procedural generation for the mines, but ended up scrapping it: https://www.stardewvalley.net/stardew-valley-10-year-anniversary/ https://www.stardewvalley.net/stardew-valley-10-year-anniver...
- bombcar 8mo ago
  They're quasi-generated with random elements and fixed elements - similarly to early Diablo procedural generation.
  - xerox13ster 8mo ago
    That’s not the same procedural generation as GPT or diffusion and you know it. It’s not even in the same ballpark as Elite, NMS, terraria, or Minecraft. The levels are all hand drawn, not generated by an algorithm, even if they’re shuffled. Eric Barone, the developer, has publicly said as much. Are you calling him a liar? It’s like the difference between sudoku/crossword and conways game of life
    - cweagans 8mo ago
      The parent comment didn't seem to say anything offensive. Why so hostile?
      - xerox13ster 8mo ago
        Honestly, just white knighting for one of my favorite developers and biggest inspirations. Someone lying about the pseudo randomization of the hand drawn efforts to make it seem entirely algorithmically generated rubs me really wrong, especially when that dev has publicly broadcast the reasoning of the decision to eschew procedurally generated mines.
        cweagans 8mo ago
        I think that's what I was confused about: I don't see the lie in the comments above. optionalsquid said "[...]did try to implement procedural generation for the mines, but ended up scrapping it" bombcar said "They're quasi-generated with random elements and fixed elements - similarly to early Diablo procedural generation." (which is true - you confirmed as much in the very next comment - "The levels are all hand drawn, not generated by an algorithm, even if they’re shuffled.". That's all early Diablo was doing.) "Quasi-generated" seems like an appropriate descriptor here - stringing together level building blocks algorithmically is still "generating" a level in a sense. You're right - it's not correct to say that they were generated in the same way that an LLM generates things, but a) nobody claimed that and b) there is an undeniable element of procedural generation here.
morissette 8mo ago
And here I thought the most popular game of all time was Soccer or Super Mario Bros 3
- 6510 8mo ago
  Quality is the same thing as popularity. That is why mcdonalds has 12 Michelin stars.
- bee_rider 8mo ago
  I think they meant videogame, ruling out soccer. It looks like the Super Mario Bros series has a good showing, but it is the first one. I bet 3 falls into an unlucky valley where the game-playing population was not quite as large as it is now, but it isn’t early enough to get the extreme nostalgia of the first one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_gam... Of course this assumes sales=popularity, but the latter is too hard to measure.
  - bartread 8mo ago
    I dunno: I think SMB 3 gets plenty of plaudits and is widely agreed to be the best SMB on the NES. Frankly, all three of the NES games hold up well even today, but 3 is for me the pinnacle even though very late in the life of the console, particularly in North America and Europe. This wouldn’t have helped sales with the SNES about to drop but it nevertheless was very successful. Absolutely one of the greats.

by bombcar 8mo ago

optionalsquid 8mo ago

> And it's used to power effect where you might not expect it (Stardew Valley mines). Apparently Stardew Valley's mines are not procedurally generated, but rather hand-crafted. Per their recent 10 year anniversary video, the developer did try to implement procedural generation for the mines, but ended up scrapping it: https://www.stardewvalley.net/stardew-valley-10-year-anniversary/ https://www.stardewvalley.net/stardew-valley-10-year-anniver...

bombcar 8mo ago
They're quasi-generated with random elements and fixed elements - similarly to early Diablo procedural generation.
- xerox13ster 8mo ago
  That’s not the same procedural generation as GPT or diffusion and you know it. It’s not even in the same ballpark as Elite, NMS, terraria, or Minecraft. The levels are all hand drawn, not generated by an algorithm, even if they’re shuffled. Eric Barone, the developer, has publicly said as much. Are you calling him a liar? It’s like the difference between sudoku/crossword and conways game of life
  - cweagans 8mo ago
    The parent comment didn't seem to say anything offensive. Why so hostile?
    - xerox13ster 8mo ago
      Honestly, just white knighting for one of my favorite developers and biggest inspirations. Someone lying about the pseudo randomization of the hand drawn efforts to make it seem entirely algorithmically generated rubs me really wrong, especially when that dev has publicly broadcast the reasoning of the decision to eschew procedurally generated mines.
      - cweagans 8mo ago
        I think that's what I was confused about: I don't see the lie in the comments above. optionalsquid said "[...]did try to implement procedural generation for the mines, but ended up scrapping it" bombcar said "They're quasi-generated with random elements and fixed elements - similarly to early Diablo procedural generation." (which is true - you confirmed as much in the very next comment - "The levels are all hand drawn, not generated by an algorithm, even if they’re shuffled.". That's all early Diablo was doing.) "Quasi-generated" seems like an appropriate descriptor here - stringing together level building blocks algorithmically is still "generating" a level in a sense. You're right - it's not correct to say that they were generated in the same way that an LLM generates things, but a) nobody claimed that and b) there is an undeniable element of procedural generation here.

morissette 8mo ago

And here I thought the most popular game of all time was Soccer or Super Mario Bros 3

6510 8mo ago
Quality is the same thing as popularity. That is why mcdonalds has 12 Michelin stars.
bee_rider 8mo ago
I think they meant videogame, ruling out soccer. It looks like the Super Mario Bros series has a good showing, but it is the first one. I bet 3 falls into an unlucky valley where the game-playing population was not quite as large as it is now, but it isn’t early enough to get the extreme nostalgia of the first one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_gam... Of course this assumes sales=popularity, but the latter is too hard to measure.
- bartread 8mo ago
  I dunno: I think SMB 3 gets plenty of plaudits and is widely agreed to be the best SMB on the NES. Frankly, all three of the NES games hold up well even today, but 3 is for me the pinnacle even though very late in the life of the console, particularly in North America and Europe. This wouldn’t have helped sales with the SNES about to drop but it nevertheless was very successful. Absolutely one of the greats.