3 ms·

I hope you are not based in the U.S., because if you are, you are committing the unauthorized practice of law and face unlimited liability for malpractice arisi

by rprasad 14y ago

I hope you are not based in the U.S., because if you are, you are committing the unauthorized practice of law and face unlimited liability for malpractice arising from anyone's use of these documents. Also, in many states, the unauthorized practice of law is a crime. A misdemeanor or regulatory offense in most states, but a felony in some. In many states, the authorities are empowered to seek all incomes from the activities deemed to be such practice of law. EDIT: Obie appears to be based in Atlanta Georgia, so the above is applicable. I regret to inform you (Obie) that unless you immediately stop referring to these documents as legally binding (i.e., on HN and at your Shopify store), I am ethically mandated to report you to the Georgia Bar Association (and the California Bar Association) for the unauthorized practice of law. You may refer to these documents as "samples" or "research materials for use with conferring with a lawyer" but you may not describe these documents as legally valid/binding/appropriate documents.

rprasad 14y ago
Followup: to see examples of how this can be done, check out the Nolo line of books, especially the sample forms in the appendices. (Hint: use the word "sample" unsparingly.)
- obiefernandez 14y ago
  Hey since you seem to know some more about this than I do, can we have an email conversation about it before you take any action? I certainly don't want to be breaking the law in any way and am happy to make changes to bring my product into compliance. I have many people that have been very happy to use these templates in the way that I've described -- I'm just trying to provide a valuable service to other hackers, this is not a huge money maker for me.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    As I said: you must call them "samples". It is a good idea to have "Sample" as the first word in the title of these forms, i.e., "Sample Memorandum of Understanding." You must also stop saying that they are legally binding and valid. (They are, but...) The problem is that you are saying that these documents are legally appropriate for the purchaser, i.e., that they can rely on these documents for legal effect, regardless of the circumstances. You can't say that unless you know for certain that is the case for the specific facts and circumstances of the purchaser. This application of judgment is considered the practice of law, and this is what will get you in trouble. (It is okay to continue saying that you use them, since you are not saying whether someone else should use them.) Nolo and LegalZoom get around the practice of law restrictions by expressly stating that their documents are only samples and are not intended to be relied upon without review by a lawyer. (Indeed, most of LegalZoom's $100 documents are merely samples released by the various secretaries of state with Legalzoom's logo added.) Luckily, they have both fought enough court cases to establish that it is no longer necessary to plaster "This is not a legally valid document." on every page. It's still a good idea to do that, but courts recognize that clearly labeling something a "sample" is sufficient protection (for you). A possible pivot: Change what you're selling. Partner with a few local lawyers, and offer the documents as part of a package: buy the doc, get an hour included with a lawyer to review it to make sure it is satisfies the purchaser's needs. You would generally need a lawyer in every state in which you wish to do this, so I would limit it to Georgia and/or California. Depending on what sort of referral fee you work out with the lawyer(s), you could drop the price on the documents and more than recoup it from the referral fees.
    - obiefernandez 14y ago
      Hey rprasad, big thanks for the super quick reply. I am already made some sweeping changes to the copy on the site based on your feedback. Also will be having my own attorney review the site this week. I am very familiar with NOLO's products and in fact I have some of them myself. If you go to (for instance) their collection of contractor agreement samples here: http://www.nolo.com/companion/consultant-and-independent-contractor-agreements-CICA.html http://www.nolo.com/companion/consultant-and-independent-con... you'll notice that they are not overtly plastered with SAMPLE notices or disclaimers, but their book does clearly state that you need to review this stuff with your own attorney to get their advice. I believe that now, especially with the latest copy changes I am abiding by the spirit of your advice. Please realize that I am not trying to do anything wrong or sneaky. BTW thanks! I like the idea partnering with lawyers to provide a packaged service (although that is probably way too ambitious for what is a very small side project for me.)

by rprasad 14y ago

rprasad 14y ago

Followup: to see examples of how this can be done, check out the Nolo line of books, especially the sample forms in the appendices. (Hint: use the word "sample" unsparingly.)

obiefernandez 14y ago
Hey since you seem to know some more about this than I do, can we have an email conversation about it before you take any action? I certainly don't want to be breaking the law in any way and am happy to make changes to bring my product into compliance. I have many people that have been very happy to use these templates in the way that I've described -- I'm just trying to provide a valuable service to other hackers, this is not a huge money maker for me.
- rprasad 14y ago
  As I said: you must call them "samples". It is a good idea to have "Sample" as the first word in the title of these forms, i.e., "Sample Memorandum of Understanding." You must also stop saying that they are legally binding and valid. (They are, but...) The problem is that you are saying that these documents are legally appropriate for the purchaser, i.e., that they can rely on these documents for legal effect, regardless of the circumstances. You can't say that unless you know for certain that is the case for the specific facts and circumstances of the purchaser. This application of judgment is considered the practice of law, and this is what will get you in trouble. (It is okay to continue saying that you use them, since you are not saying whether someone else should use them.) Nolo and LegalZoom get around the practice of law restrictions by expressly stating that their documents are only samples and are not intended to be relied upon without review by a lawyer. (Indeed, most of LegalZoom's $100 documents are merely samples released by the various secretaries of state with Legalzoom's logo added.) Luckily, they have both fought enough court cases to establish that it is no longer necessary to plaster "This is not a legally valid document." on every page. It's still a good idea to do that, but courts recognize that clearly labeling something a "sample" is sufficient protection (for you). A possible pivot: Change what you're selling. Partner with a few local lawyers, and offer the documents as part of a package: buy the doc, get an hour included with a lawyer to review it to make sure it is satisfies the purchaser's needs. You would generally need a lawyer in every state in which you wish to do this, so I would limit it to Georgia and/or California. Depending on what sort of referral fee you work out with the lawyer(s), you could drop the price on the documents and more than recoup it from the referral fees.
  - obiefernandez 14y ago
    Hey rprasad, big thanks for the super quick reply. I am already made some sweeping changes to the copy on the site based on your feedback. Also will be having my own attorney review the site this week. I am very familiar with NOLO's products and in fact I have some of them myself. If you go to (for instance) their collection of contractor agreement samples here: http://www.nolo.com/companion/consultant-and-independent-contractor-agreements-CICA.html http://www.nolo.com/companion/consultant-and-independent-con... you'll notice that they are not overtly plastered with SAMPLE notices or disclaimers, but their book does clearly state that you need to review this stuff with your own attorney to get their advice. I believe that now, especially with the latest copy changes I am abiding by the spirit of your advice. Please realize that I am not trying to do anything wrong or sneaky. BTW thanks! I like the idea partnering with lawyers to provide a packaged service (although that is probably way too ambitious for what is a very small side project for me.)