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Rooting is a very bad idea. https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rooting https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rootin... But Gr

Rooting is a very bad idea. https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rooting https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rootin... But GrapheneOS is fully open source and provides great build instructions, so you can always make your own build and add whatever features or privileged apps you like within the standard AOSP frameworks for privileged apps with system integration. > Backing up all app data via Neo Backup GrapheneOS includes Seedvault by default. https://grapheneos.org/features#encrypted-backups https://grapheneos.org/features#encrypted-backups > High-quality call recording via Call Recorder Call recording is built into the Dialer app on GrapheneOS. https://grapheneos.org/features#encrypted-backups:~:text=Call%20recording%20functionality%20within%20the%20Dialer%20app%20using%20modern%20Android%20storage%20with%20recordings%20stored%20in%20Recordings/Call%20Recordings%20and%20no%20restrictions%20based%20on%20region%20or%20special%20cases%20like%20playing%20a%20recording%20tone%20(users%20are%20still%20responsible%20for%20complying%20with%20their%20local%20laws) https://grapheneos.org/features#encrypted-backups:~:text=Cal.... > DNS-based ad blocking is possible via apps like AdGuard DNS-based blocking can also be accomplished by using Android's native Private DNS feature with a resolver that blocks ads. You could even host your own on a VPS if you are more comfortable running name resolution and DNS-level adblocking on infrastructure you control. The RethinkDNS app also lets you use DNS-level adblocking and a VPN at the same time. https://grapheneos.org/faq#ad-blocking-apps https://grapheneos.org/faq#ad-blocking-apps > I have no experience with GrapheneOS, so I'd be interested to hear if these features are possible on it without rooting. I recommend giving https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features a read. > If not, can I request these features somewhere? Check out the issue tracker on GitHub: https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues

thot_experiment 7mo ago
Rooting is only a bad idea if there is an alternative. Unfortunately I have to root my devices because there isn't an alternative method to provide me, the physical owner of the device with control over the device. I would much prefer not to generally have root on my phone but to be able to access root externally or via a hardware switch or some other scheme. ADB root is fine. The alternative to "running as root" isn't "not having access to root".
- thunderfork 7mo ago
  >Rooting is only a bad idea if there is an alternative. An alternative to accomplish what? >to provide me, the physical owner of the device with control over the device Control over what properties or behaviours of the device, exactly? No offense, but these complaints feel more like aesthetic ("I want to log into a user named root") than practical ("I want to be able to do things that could only be done under root")
  - thot_experiment 7mo ago
    You're missing the point completely, of course there are more secure ways to do a lot of things, the problem is that if there isn't an alternative "secure" mechanism to accomplish what I want if I have root I can just get it done whatever way works for me. I do not want to run into a situation like I did prior to having root, where my voice memos unbeknownst to me end up in some sort of elevated privileged enclave and I can't copy them over to my computer. There's a myriad of reasons to have root, like baseline I want to be able to watch my network traffic. I want to be able to spoof my location, I want to be able to sftp into my phone and mount it as a drive because it's convenient. I want to access sensors and log them in the background. I wanna just run normal linux daemons. I don't need any of these reasons though, all I need is the desire to be the ultimate arbiter of what happens on my devices. I don't need to or want to control all aspects of what goes on my device, I'm fine giving up control, I'm not fine with it being taken away from me. Everything else is secondary, the person with final say on what happens on my device should be me.
diacritical 7mo ago
> https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rooting https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rootin... I'm trying to understand why rooting Android is such a sin. If I give root to my terminal so I can browse and edit any files I want, I'm placing a lot of trust in the terminal, sure. But trusting the terminal seems reasonable, as it's an important (basic; fundamental; necessary) part of any "real" OS. If I don't trust the terminal to not be malicious, why should I trust my OS? Anything could be compromised from a supply-chain attack. If we don't trust anything, we can turn off the computer and have perfect security, but if we accept that there's a trade-off between security and usability, we have to place some trust in some parts of the system. > It does not matter if you have to whitelist apps that have root — an attacker can fake user input by, for example, clickjacking, or they can exploit vulnerabilities in apps that you have granted root to. Rooting turns huge portions of the operating system into root attack surface; vulnerabilities in the UI layer — such as in the display server, among other things — can now be abused to gain complete root access. So if some app can somehow exploit the display server, it can inject commands on the terminal and hide the real output? I know the X server on Linux has (or has had) major security issues [1] that don't provide any real GUI isolation. Is that the type of issues Madaidan is talking about? I don't know much about Android's display server, but if it's possible for an app without root access to exploit it, couldn't that app inject touch events or keystrokes in another app, or read the other app's screen? How would not having root benefit me if a random can view or control other apps without my knowledge by exploiting the display server? [2] From what I gather if an app with root access has vulnerabilities, it makes it easier for another app (or other type of malicious code) to use it to gain root. But if the UI layer, to use Madaidan's example, has a vulnerability, it seems like it could be exploited successfully, with awful consequences, even if the malicious code doesn't get root in the end. So if I choose several apps to give root access to, I would just extend the attack surface from {all of the OS and its various layers} to {all of the OS and its various layers and those several apps}. > root fundamentally breaks verified boot and other security features by placing excessive trust in persistent state. I don't understand this. Could someone explain it with more details to me, please? [1] https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-securi... [2] https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/
Narushia 7mo ago
Thank you so much for replying! Seems promising, I will take a closer look. I'm definitely looking forward to possibly buying a Graphene-powered Motorola phone in the future.

thot_experiment 7mo ago

Rooting is only a bad idea if there is an alternative. Unfortunately I have to root my devices because there isn't an alternative method to provide me, the physical owner of the device with control over the device. I would much prefer not to generally have root on my phone but to be able to access root externally or via a hardware switch or some other scheme. ADB root is fine. The alternative to "running as root" isn't "not having access to root".

thunderfork 7mo ago
>Rooting is only a bad idea if there is an alternative. An alternative to accomplish what? >to provide me, the physical owner of the device with control over the device Control over what properties or behaviours of the device, exactly? No offense, but these complaints feel more like aesthetic ("I want to log into a user named root") than practical ("I want to be able to do things that could only be done under root")
- thot_experiment 7mo ago
  You're missing the point completely, of course there are more secure ways to do a lot of things, the problem is that if there isn't an alternative "secure" mechanism to accomplish what I want if I have root I can just get it done whatever way works for me. I do not want to run into a situation like I did prior to having root, where my voice memos unbeknownst to me end up in some sort of elevated privileged enclave and I can't copy them over to my computer. There's a myriad of reasons to have root, like baseline I want to be able to watch my network traffic. I want to be able to spoof my location, I want to be able to sftp into my phone and mount it as a drive because it's convenient. I want to access sensors and log them in the background. I wanna just run normal linux daemons. I don't need any of these reasons though, all I need is the desire to be the ultimate arbiter of what happens on my devices. I don't need to or want to control all aspects of what goes on my device, I'm fine giving up control, I'm not fine with it being taken away from me. Everything else is secondary, the person with final say on what happens on my device should be me.

diacritical 7mo ago

> https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rooting https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#rootin... I'm trying to understand why rooting Android is such a sin. If I give root to my terminal so I can browse and edit any files I want, I'm placing a lot of trust in the terminal, sure. But trusting the terminal seems reasonable, as it's an important (basic; fundamental; necessary) part of any "real" OS. If I don't trust the terminal to not be malicious, why should I trust my OS? Anything could be compromised from a supply-chain attack. If we don't trust anything, we can turn off the computer and have perfect security, but if we accept that there's a trade-off between security and usability, we have to place some trust in some parts of the system. > It does not matter if you have to whitelist apps that have root — an attacker can fake user input by, for example, clickjacking, or they can exploit vulnerabilities in apps that you have granted root to. Rooting turns huge portions of the operating system into root attack surface; vulnerabilities in the UI layer — such as in the display server, among other things — can now be abused to gain complete root access. So if some app can somehow exploit the display server, it can inject commands on the terminal and hide the real output? I know the X server on Linux has (or has had) major security issues [1] that don't provide any real GUI isolation. Is that the type of issues Madaidan is talking about? I don't know much about Android's display server, but if it's possible for an app without root access to exploit it, couldn't that app inject touch events or keystrokes in another app, or read the other app's screen? How would not having root benefit me if a random can view or control other apps without my knowledge by exploiting the display server? [2] From what I gather if an app with root access has vulnerabilities, it makes it easier for another app (or other type of malicious code) to use it to gain root. But if the UI layer, to use Madaidan's example, has a vulnerability, it seems like it could be exploited successfully, with awful consequences, even if the malicious code doesn't get root in the end. So if I choose several apps to give root access to, I would just extend the attack surface from {all of the OS and its various layers} to {all of the OS and its various layers and those several apps}. > root fundamentally breaks verified boot and other security features by placing excessive trust in persistent state. I don't understand this. Could someone explain it with more details to me, please? [1] https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2011/04/linux-securi... [2] https://xkcd.com/1200/ https://xkcd.com/1200/

Narushia 7mo ago

Thank you so much for replying! Seems promising, I will take a closer look. I'm definitely looking forward to possibly buying a Graphene-powered Motorola phone in the future.