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Apple famously abandoned per-window menus per Fitt's law[1]. Wiki[2] says: > Apple experiments in GUI design for the Lisa project initially used multiple menu

Apple famously abandoned per-window menus per Fitt's law[1]. Wiki[2] says: > Apple experiments in GUI design for the Lisa project initially used multiple menu bars anchored to the bottom of windows, but this was quickly dropped in favor of the current arrangement, as it proved slower to use (in accordance with Fitts's law). The idea of separate menus in each window or document was later implemented in Windows and is the default approach in most Linux desktop environments. I recall hearing a quote that said Jobs called the menu the ultimate discoverability tool in the designer's arsenal, but I couldn't find the quote. I am thankful for the menu junk drawer in Firefox. Better to give me everything I can discover in a menu rather than make a zillion fugly buttons and cluttering up the chrome. Although, anything that isn't frequently used by users should at least go under a few submenus to echo OP's criticisms. If Copy Clean Link is the "right" thing to do for users, then make "Copy Raw Link" a sub-menu item. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menu_bar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menu_bar

layer8 7mo ago
Fitts’s law for menu bars made sense on a 12” monitor back then, but not so much on today’s large displays.
- dwoldrich 7mo ago
  Maybe worthwhile to encourage a heavier reliance on right click menus going forward, then? Seems to make sense in a future VR world. I have noticed that Mac Sequoia I'm running now has some memory as to which process last focused on each display and now is able to show a different menu per display, albeit grayed for displays where the user is not currently focused. It's a little janky, but kindof a graceful devolution of the original single menu vision.
  - layer8 7mo ago
    Context menus are specifically for actions on the particular thing you click on (for example a file in a file listing, or an object in a layout program). It still makes sense to have a separate application menu bar. But personally I think menu bars are really more intuitive attached to the application window rather than at the top of the screen, potentially relatively far away from the window. With today’s wide screens, a vertical menu bar at the side would perhaps make more sense than the usual one at the top, though, similar to vertical tabs. I don’t see a future VR world other than for casual use, because keyboard and mouse/trackpad will remain the highest-bandwidth way to interact with a computer.
    - kps 7mo ago
      > With today’s wide screens, a vertical menu bar at the side would perhaps make more sense than the usual one at the top, though, similar to vertical tabs. That's what NeXTSTEP did for application menus, along with right-click context menus (which MacOS X did keep).
    - wtallis 7mo ago
      > With today’s wide screens, a vertical menu bar at the side would perhaps make more sense than the usual one at the top, though, similar to vertical tabs. Yes, please. Bring back the NeXTSTEP menus for desktops! But on laptops, it's still pretty common for almost all windows to be full screen most of the time, so having the menu bar at the top of the screen is still the best choice for that environment. That gap between what's best on a laptop and what's best on a desktop with large or multiple displays has been growing since desktop displays broke free of the 1080p but they were stuck in. But I don't think it's anywhere close to wide enough that Apple or Microsoft would be willing to implement different UI paradigms. It's hard enough getting them to understand that tablets and laptops need different UIs.
    - dwoldrich 7mo ago
      That's a good point about context sensitivity and the need for process-level controls needing a top level menu. I would say that part of the friction with window-level menus is moving targets. It's less cognitive effort to find and hit menu targets that are always in the same place on the screen. Part of the discoverability of menus is learning what actions are modal (titles have the ellipsis) and learning what hotkeys and key chords do what in the app. There's nothing faster than hotkeys. Ideally, users train themselves to use hotkeys to get work done and forego the menu except to discover additional features.
  - wvenable 7mo ago
    I'm staring at a few apps on Windows right now and none of them even have menu bars (Firefox, Outlook, Spotify, Notepad, etc).
- wpm 7mo ago
  No, they still make sense and work just fine on large displays. I have two 2880x2560 displays on my Mac. A flick of the trackball gets me to the menubar no matter where the window is or how large it is.
eviks 7mo ago
> Better to give me everything I can discover in a menu Of course you're not given everything, that'd be hundreds of items > rather than make a zillion fugly buttons and cluttering up the chrome. This isn't the only alternative > menu the ultimate discoverability tool It isn't very discoverable, there is no search and no good convenient contextual explanation of what the options are So a failure across all your metrics
- dwoldrich 7mo ago
  > So a failure across all your metrics Hey what's with the jerky tone? Are we competing for dominance now? Was Steve Jobs a bad guy and so I am by mentioning him? He had good taste, and people aren't one-dimensional cartoon characters, you git. > hundreds of items Pedantry. The ellipsis items covers some categorized feature drill downs that don't get top billing, the sub menus others. > This isn't the only alternative Captain Obvious does it again ladies and gentlemen! Many managers have to show engagement with their feature to be successful and would love to shove it in your face with a shiny button. See the copilot button getting added to every Microsoft Office product even if it's not integrated at all - shameful! > It isn't very discoverable, there is no search Thank goodness I can save face here, 'discoverable' is a binary quality: something either is or isn't discoverable and a browsable menu IS. Plenty of vendors put a search on their Help menu. (It usually sucks, to be fair.) Jetbrains has an auto-completing action search that exposes practically every action the IDE can effect by their titles. Wow, search CAN help, amazing insight! Why aren't you advising diplomats and statesmen?
kelnos 7mo ago
This isn't about per-window menu bars, though; it's about context menus. macOS still has those.
- dwoldrich 7mo ago
  Discoverability was why I decided to discuss menus in the first place and I was being a bit of a contrarian by expressing happiness for the kitchen sink aspect to the "right-click" context menu. Not everyone will understand the dilemma that UX designers have about surfacing their features without causing clutter and distraction, and I was trying to start a conversation about that.

layer8 7mo ago

Fitts’s law for menu bars made sense on a 12” monitor back then, but not so much on today’s large displays.

dwoldrich 7mo ago
Maybe worthwhile to encourage a heavier reliance on right click menus going forward, then? Seems to make sense in a future VR world. I have noticed that Mac Sequoia I'm running now has some memory as to which process last focused on each display and now is able to show a different menu per display, albeit grayed for displays where the user is not currently focused. It's a little janky, but kindof a graceful devolution of the original single menu vision.
- layer8 7mo ago
  Context menus are specifically for actions on the particular thing you click on (for example a file in a file listing, or an object in a layout program). It still makes sense to have a separate application menu bar. But personally I think menu bars are really more intuitive attached to the application window rather than at the top of the screen, potentially relatively far away from the window. With today’s wide screens, a vertical menu bar at the side would perhaps make more sense than the usual one at the top, though, similar to vertical tabs. I don’t see a future VR world other than for casual use, because keyboard and mouse/trackpad will remain the highest-bandwidth way to interact with a computer.
  - kps 7mo ago
    > With today’s wide screens, a vertical menu bar at the side would perhaps make more sense than the usual one at the top, though, similar to vertical tabs. That's what NeXTSTEP did for application menus, along with right-click context menus (which MacOS X did keep).
  - wtallis 7mo ago
    > With today’s wide screens, a vertical menu bar at the side would perhaps make more sense than the usual one at the top, though, similar to vertical tabs. Yes, please. Bring back the NeXTSTEP menus for desktops! But on laptops, it's still pretty common for almost all windows to be full screen most of the time, so having the menu bar at the top of the screen is still the best choice for that environment. That gap between what's best on a laptop and what's best on a desktop with large or multiple displays has been growing since desktop displays broke free of the 1080p but they were stuck in. But I don't think it's anywhere close to wide enough that Apple or Microsoft would be willing to implement different UI paradigms. It's hard enough getting them to understand that tablets and laptops need different UIs.
  - dwoldrich 7mo ago
    That's a good point about context sensitivity and the need for process-level controls needing a top level menu. I would say that part of the friction with window-level menus is moving targets. It's less cognitive effort to find and hit menu targets that are always in the same place on the screen. Part of the discoverability of menus is learning what actions are modal (titles have the ellipsis) and learning what hotkeys and key chords do what in the app. There's nothing faster than hotkeys. Ideally, users train themselves to use hotkeys to get work done and forego the menu except to discover additional features.
- wvenable 7mo ago
  I'm staring at a few apps on Windows right now and none of them even have menu bars (Firefox, Outlook, Spotify, Notepad, etc).
wpm 7mo ago
No, they still make sense and work just fine on large displays. I have two 2880x2560 displays on my Mac. A flick of the trackball gets me to the menubar no matter where the window is or how large it is.

eviks 7mo ago

> Better to give me everything I can discover in a menu Of course you're not given everything, that'd be hundreds of items > rather than make a zillion fugly buttons and cluttering up the chrome. This isn't the only alternative > menu the ultimate discoverability tool It isn't very discoverable, there is no search and no good convenient contextual explanation of what the options are So a failure across all your metrics

dwoldrich 7mo ago
> So a failure across all your metrics Hey what's with the jerky tone? Are we competing for dominance now? Was Steve Jobs a bad guy and so I am by mentioning him? He had good taste, and people aren't one-dimensional cartoon characters, you git. > hundreds of items Pedantry. The ellipsis items covers some categorized feature drill downs that don't get top billing, the sub menus others. > This isn't the only alternative Captain Obvious does it again ladies and gentlemen! Many managers have to show engagement with their feature to be successful and would love to shove it in your face with a shiny button. See the copilot button getting added to every Microsoft Office product even if it's not integrated at all - shameful! > It isn't very discoverable, there is no search Thank goodness I can save face here, 'discoverable' is a binary quality: something either is or isn't discoverable and a browsable menu IS. Plenty of vendors put a search on their Help menu. (It usually sucks, to be fair.) Jetbrains has an auto-completing action search that exposes practically every action the IDE can effect by their titles. Wow, search CAN help, amazing insight! Why aren't you advising diplomats and statesmen?

kelnos 7mo ago

This isn't about per-window menu bars, though; it's about context menus. macOS still has those.

dwoldrich 7mo ago
Discoverability was why I decided to discuss menus in the first place and I was being a bit of a contrarian by expressing happiness for the kitchen sink aspect to the "right-click" context menu. Not everyone will understand the dilemma that UX designers have about surfacing their features without causing clutter and distraction, and I was trying to start a conversation about that.