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China is also giving them dump trucks full of cash though. Plus you have to content with the nationalism reason (unfortunately this has died off in America for

China is also giving them dump trucks full of cash though. Plus you have to content with the nationalism reason (unfortunately this has died off in America for too many). The idea of building your country is valued for most Chinese I have met. Plus China is incredibly nice to live in, especially if you have lots of money and/or connections. So you can work in China, get paid lots of money, feel like you are doing good. Or In America you can get paid lots of money, and get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model.

danny_codes 8mo ago
China city life is amazingly convenient. Trains and subways are just such an enormous quality of life boost. Add to that the relative cleanliness of having nearly zero homelessness and you’ve got something very compelling. I will say we are winning in accessibility. China doesn’t have much of a ramp game
- softwaredoug 8mo ago
  All very true. I wonder if you max out your options in China. It seems the Party is suspicious of ambition and high profile winners. I'm sure you can live comfortably, but there's a ceiling.
  - bdangubic 8mo ago
    what is the issue with having a ceiling?
    - WarmWash 8mo ago
      Star athletes really hate being told they can't score more than 10 goals in a season because it's unfair to the other weaker players. The players will either leave to go play somewhere else, or they become weaker players themselves.
      - kelipso 8mo ago
        Why would a country want to welcome a psychopath whose goal is to make lots of money and wield political power that results from the money. I'm sure they would be happier with just as psychopathic people who make a bit less money but don't have aspirations of running the country from their secret bunker.
      - bdangubic 8mo ago
        wowsa - wasn't expecting star athletes and sports to enter this conversation... wild!
      - vuurmot 8mo ago
        how about explaining why without giving an analogy?
      - realharo 8mo ago
        And yet almost all of the most popular sports leagues in the US have a salary cap rule.
  - danny_codes 8mo ago
    That’s not relevant to normal people. If you’re a billionaire with aspirations of power then it’s probably good there’s a ceiling. Sure beats having Elon randomly firing your public servants while high on ketamine.
jamespo 8mo ago
Damn that social conscience, huh?
petcat 8mo ago
> Or In America you can get paid lots of money, and get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model. Isn't it just straight-up illegal in China to refuse the government from using your model? USA isn't perfect, but at least it has active discourse.
- ecshafer 8mo ago
  I would imagine if it isn't illegal its a very bad idea not to. But regardless, I would bet large amounts of money that you would never get any flack for doing anything for the government. If I went on X, Threads, Bluesky, TikTok and said "Hey I am a software engineer selling awesome new technology to the government and military!" I am going to get Americans attacking me for supporting Trump / ICE / FBI whatever the current issue of the day is. If I did the same on Douyin or Weibo the response would be able making China strong, and there would be no criticism of that choice.
  - cmrdporcupine 8mo ago
    Sure, but the difference is that while the Chinese state is measurably awful on all sorts of human rights things within their own borders... they're not currently dropping bombs on foreign cities, starving a neighbour of critical petroleum shipments, or heavily funding an ally to slowly exterminate a population.
    - fc417fc802 8mo ago
      What point are you trying to make here? Are government abuses somehow inherently better or worse depending on where they happen? Do you imagine an invasion of Taiwan won't involve dropping bombs? I feel like we should be able to agree that providing authoritarian regimes with high tech tools is immoral in the general case.
      - cmrdporcupine 8mo ago
        My point is as a non-American I feel no allegiance to either state, and current events don't make me sympathetic to the geo-political aims of the USA. So I don't see a strong moral case for this tech being an especial purvey of either party. If you'd asked me two years ago my answer might have been different. And to the original point, yeah, I would feel entirely justified in the critique of engineers in providing tools to the US defense apparatus at this point. At least the Chinese shops are giving their weights away for free, and not demanding that any government ban the rest.
1024core 8mo ago
I got an offer out of the blue for a consulting gig in ML, offering USD 400/hr in China. Assuming this was legit (the offeror seemed legit), it looks like China is also throwing a lot of Benjamins around...
VWWHFSfQ 8mo ago
> China is incredibly nice to live in I'm sure it's a very nice place to live if you're content to just stay quiet in society and never put a political sign in your yard or even just talk about the wrong thing with your friend in a WeChat.
- bdangubic 8mo ago
  try to protest in america and see how that works out for you long-term. or say protest against genocide in gaza at an uni or generally in public…
  - cyberax 8mo ago
    Sigh. Let's not invent things? You can protest anything in the US just fine, with generally no consequences. Heck, our local _high_ _school_ students go out and protest everything to weasel out of classes.
    - cheema33 8mo ago
      Trump admin did put people in prison and then deported them, for doing nothing more than protesting. Not as bad as China sure, but not as good as other civilized nations.
      - fc417fc802 8mo ago
        Let's just clarify that visitors don't have the same rights as citizens. Whether or not you agree with the current administration's policies hopefully we can agree that it is entirely reasonable for them to deport foreign political dissidents more or less at their discretion. If you want to put this to the test try crossing the Canadian border and when they ask you the purpose of your visit respond that it's to attend a protest.
        cheema33 8mo ago
        > Let's just clarify that visitors don't have the same rights as citizens. Yunseo Chung was not a visitor. She came to the United States from South Korea at age 7. She was arrested last year for peacefully protesting. Charges against her were dropped but the govt. canceled her green card. The govt. has been trying to deport her since then, but the courts keep blocking it. https://humanrightsfirst.org/yunseo-chung-v-trump-administration/ https://humanrightsfirst.org/yunseo-chung-v-trump-administra... While the legality of these actions are being debated in courts, I think most of us can agree that this is reprehensible behavior on part of the Trump admin.
leptons 8mo ago
Chinese people are very racist towards non-Chinese. It might seem like a happy utopia, but if you aren't Chinese, then you may not really enjoy your time there. It may not be quite as bad as being black in rural US south, but being black (or anything non-Chinese) in China is still not going to be a good time.
- px43 8mo ago
  Wild to call 1.42 billion people racist despite having met very few of them.
  - leptons 8mo ago
    It's funny that you think you know who I've met. YOU DON'T KNOW ME.
- WarmWash 8mo ago
  Racism in even the worse parts of America doesn't even begin to touch the racism present in monocultural/monoracial countries.
  - Larrikin 8mo ago
    Have you experienced racism? In Japan atleast, it was evenly applied. That company won't rent to foreigners but this one will. That company won't hire foreigners but this one will. Police will bother you if you ride a bike, but they will be polite while they waste 10 minutes of your time asking for your gaijin card for biking while foreign. In the US people try to hide it and are far more sinister about it, since there are a lot of laws against obvious racism. The cops are also happy in the US to just kill you. The racism in the US comes out of hate where as what I experienced abroad was more, we don't think you'll fit in and follow the rules and you have to constantly prove that you can. I didn't spend too much time in China so maybe it is a racist hell hole. But my experience in Japan was that white immigrants were way more inclined to make a huge deal about the lighter racism they experienced because they had never been somewhere where their skin color was a disadvantage.
maxglute 8mo ago
> get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model Well duh, as recently demonstrated, an US model used by the US gov will 100% end up murdering actual children sooner than later, in this case less than a calendar year in some far flung war that many Americans do not support. Alternatively PRC model used by CCP might kill in some hypothetical future but for national reunification/rejuvenation that many Chinese support. At the end of the day, researchers and population on one side sleeps more soundly.

danny_codes 8mo ago

China city life is amazingly convenient. Trains and subways are just such an enormous quality of life boost. Add to that the relative cleanliness of having nearly zero homelessness and you’ve got something very compelling. I will say we are winning in accessibility. China doesn’t have much of a ramp game

softwaredoug 8mo ago
All very true. I wonder if you max out your options in China. It seems the Party is suspicious of ambition and high profile winners. I'm sure you can live comfortably, but there's a ceiling.
- bdangubic 8mo ago
  what is the issue with having a ceiling?
  - WarmWash 8mo ago
    Star athletes really hate being told they can't score more than 10 goals in a season because it's unfair to the other weaker players. The players will either leave to go play somewhere else, or they become weaker players themselves.
    - kelipso 8mo ago
      Why would a country want to welcome a psychopath whose goal is to make lots of money and wield political power that results from the money. I'm sure they would be happier with just as psychopathic people who make a bit less money but don't have aspirations of running the country from their secret bunker.
    - bdangubic 8mo ago
      wowsa - wasn't expecting star athletes and sports to enter this conversation... wild!
    - vuurmot 8mo ago
      how about explaining why without giving an analogy?
    - realharo 8mo ago
      And yet almost all of the most popular sports leagues in the US have a salary cap rule.
- danny_codes 8mo ago
  That’s not relevant to normal people. If you’re a billionaire with aspirations of power then it’s probably good there’s a ceiling. Sure beats having Elon randomly firing your public servants while high on ketamine.

jamespo 8mo ago

Damn that social conscience, huh?

petcat 8mo ago

> Or In America you can get paid lots of money, and get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model. Isn't it just straight-up illegal in China to refuse the government from using your model? USA isn't perfect, but at least it has active discourse.

ecshafer 8mo ago
I would imagine if it isn't illegal its a very bad idea not to. But regardless, I would bet large amounts of money that you would never get any flack for doing anything for the government. If I went on X, Threads, Bluesky, TikTok and said "Hey I am a software engineer selling awesome new technology to the government and military!" I am going to get Americans attacking me for supporting Trump / ICE / FBI whatever the current issue of the day is. If I did the same on Douyin or Weibo the response would be able making China strong, and there would be no criticism of that choice.
- cmrdporcupine 8mo ago
  Sure, but the difference is that while the Chinese state is measurably awful on all sorts of human rights things within their own borders... they're not currently dropping bombs on foreign cities, starving a neighbour of critical petroleum shipments, or heavily funding an ally to slowly exterminate a population.
  - fc417fc802 8mo ago
    What point are you trying to make here? Are government abuses somehow inherently better or worse depending on where they happen? Do you imagine an invasion of Taiwan won't involve dropping bombs? I feel like we should be able to agree that providing authoritarian regimes with high tech tools is immoral in the general case.
    - cmrdporcupine 8mo ago
      My point is as a non-American I feel no allegiance to either state, and current events don't make me sympathetic to the geo-political aims of the USA. So I don't see a strong moral case for this tech being an especial purvey of either party. If you'd asked me two years ago my answer might have been different. And to the original point, yeah, I would feel entirely justified in the critique of engineers in providing tools to the US defense apparatus at this point. At least the Chinese shops are giving their weights away for free, and not demanding that any government ban the rest.

1024core 8mo ago

I got an offer out of the blue for a consulting gig in ML, offering USD 400/hr in China. Assuming this was legit (the offeror seemed legit), it looks like China is also throwing a lot of Benjamins around...

VWWHFSfQ 8mo ago

> China is incredibly nice to live in I'm sure it's a very nice place to live if you're content to just stay quiet in society and never put a political sign in your yard or even just talk about the wrong thing with your friend in a WeChat.

bdangubic 8mo ago
try to protest in america and see how that works out for you long-term. or say protest against genocide in gaza at an uni or generally in public…
- cyberax 8mo ago
  Sigh. Let's not invent things? You can protest anything in the US just fine, with generally no consequences. Heck, our local _high_ _school_ students go out and protest everything to weasel out of classes.
  - cheema33 8mo ago
    Trump admin did put people in prison and then deported them, for doing nothing more than protesting. Not as bad as China sure, but not as good as other civilized nations.
    - fc417fc802 8mo ago
      Let's just clarify that visitors don't have the same rights as citizens. Whether or not you agree with the current administration's policies hopefully we can agree that it is entirely reasonable for them to deport foreign political dissidents more or less at their discretion. If you want to put this to the test try crossing the Canadian border and when they ask you the purpose of your visit respond that it's to attend a protest.
      - cheema33 8mo ago
        > Let's just clarify that visitors don't have the same rights as citizens. Yunseo Chung was not a visitor. She came to the United States from South Korea at age 7. She was arrested last year for peacefully protesting. Charges against her were dropped but the govt. canceled her green card. The govt. has been trying to deport her since then, but the courts keep blocking it. https://humanrightsfirst.org/yunseo-chung-v-trump-administration/ https://humanrightsfirst.org/yunseo-chung-v-trump-administra... While the legality of these actions are being debated in courts, I think most of us can agree that this is reprehensible behavior on part of the Trump admin.

leptons 8mo ago

Chinese people are very racist towards non-Chinese. It might seem like a happy utopia, but if you aren't Chinese, then you may not really enjoy your time there. It may not be quite as bad as being black in rural US south, but being black (or anything non-Chinese) in China is still not going to be a good time.

px43 8mo ago
Wild to call 1.42 billion people racist despite having met very few of them.
- leptons 8mo ago
  It's funny that you think you know who I've met. YOU DON'T KNOW ME.
WarmWash 8mo ago
Racism in even the worse parts of America doesn't even begin to touch the racism present in monocultural/monoracial countries.
- Larrikin 8mo ago
  Have you experienced racism? In Japan atleast, it was evenly applied. That company won't rent to foreigners but this one will. That company won't hire foreigners but this one will. Police will bother you if you ride a bike, but they will be polite while they waste 10 minutes of your time asking for your gaijin card for biking while foreign. In the US people try to hide it and are far more sinister about it, since there are a lot of laws against obvious racism. The cops are also happy in the US to just kill you. The racism in the US comes out of hate where as what I experienced abroad was more, we don't think you'll fit in and follow the rules and you have to constantly prove that you can. I didn't spend too much time in China so maybe it is a racist hell hole. But my experience in Japan was that white immigrants were way more inclined to make a huge deal about the lighter racism they experienced because they had never been somewhere where their skin color was a disadvantage.

maxglute 8mo ago

> get yelled at by people online because the Government wants to use your model Well duh, as recently demonstrated, an US model used by the US gov will 100% end up murdering actual children sooner than later, in this case less than a calendar year in some far flung war that many Americans do not support. Alternatively PRC model used by CCP might kill in some hypothetical future but for national reunification/rejuvenation that many Chinese support. At the end of the day, researchers and population on one side sleeps more soundly.