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> Tiktok has direct messages, they don't even call them private. It may not be called that, but what are users expecting? Some folks may later be surprised whe

> Tiktok has direct messages, they don't even call them private. It may not be called that, but what are users expecting? Some folks may later be surprised when a warrant gets issued (e.g., from a divorce judge).

giancarlostoro 8mo ago
If you are a grown adult and dont do research on “messaging apps” (which Tik Tok is not) then thats really on you.
- oarsinsync 8mo ago
  If you are a grown adult and don't do research on "<insert any topic that could have a material negative impact on your life, but that is not currently on your radar as being a topic that could have a material negative impact on your life>" then that's really on you. Unfortunately, this doesn't scale.
  - wizardforhire 8mo ago
    Well it does scale… just not in the way that is good for democracy.
  - hogwasher 8mo ago
    It definitely ignores that many people don't have time. If someone is working over 40 hours per week, plus maybe doing unpaid labor taking care of kids or elders, where are people supposed to find the time and energy to brush up on a million different topics they don't even know they might not know enough about? Especially if they might also have medical issues, or hobbies, or want to have any time at all to relax. Obviously, one way to improve the situation would be to make sure people are paid fairly and not overworked and have access to good and affordable or free childcare and elder-care and medical care, but corporations don't want that either. If anything, they're incentivised to disempower workers and keep them uninformed, and to get as much time out of them as they can for as little money as possible.
- foobarchu 8mo ago
  This viewpoint isn't a slippery slope, it's a runaway train. "You moved into a neighborhood with lead pipes? That's on you, should have done more research" "Your vitamins contained undisclosed allergens? You're an adult, and it didn't say it DIDN'T contain those" "Passwords stolen because your provider stored them in plaintext? They never claimed to store them securely, so it's really on you"
  - sleepybrett 8mo ago
    this isn't anything new, however. No messaging has been actually private since forever, that's why encryption was invented. To keep secrets and to pass those secrets in a way that can be observed without revealing the secret. Telephones can be tapped, people sold special boxes that would encrypt/decrypt that audio before passing it to the phone or to the ear. Mail can be opened, covertly or not. AIM was in the clear (I think at one point, fully in the clear, later probably in the clear as far as the aol servers were concerned)... Unless the app/method is directly lying to users about being e2ee it's not a slippery slope, it's the status quo. Now there are some apps out there that I think i've seen that are lying. They are claiming they are 'encrypted' but fail to clarify that it's only private on the wire, like the aim story.. the message is encrypted while it flys to the 'switchboard' where it's plain text and then it's put wrapped in encryption on the wire to send it to the recipient. The claim here that actually makes me chuckle is somehow trying to paint e2ee as 'unsafe' for users.
  - AlexandrB 8mo ago
    Legislating that everyone must always be safe regardless of what app they use is a one-way ticket to walled gardens for everything. This kind of safety is the rationale behind things like secure boot, Apple's App Store, and remote attestation. Also consider what this means for open source. No hobbyist can ship an IM app if they don't go all the way and E2E encrypt (and security audit) the damn thing. The barriers of entry this creates are huge and very beneficial for the already powerful since they can afford to deal with this stuff from day one.
    - londons_explore 8mo ago
- red-iron-pine 8mo ago
  80% of the population does not and will never do that level of deep dive on apps same discussion for any form of technology be it TVs or changing their car's oil the deliberate app-store-ification of all things computer is also designed to keep people from asking those questions -- just download in and install, pleb. it's why the Zoomers can't email attachments or change file types: all of the computers they grew up with were designed so they never had to understand what happens under the hood.
  - johnisgood 8mo ago
    And I think because of all the handholding we are left worse off.
    - hogwasher 8mo ago
      Most people couldn't tell you how their car works, at least not enough to fix it. Is that handholding, too? People can't be knowledgable about everything. There's just too much information in the world, and too many different skills that could be learned, and not enough time. A carpenter can rely on power tools without understanding fully how the tools work, and it's fine, as long as the tools are made to safe standards and the user understands basic safety instructions (e.g. wear protective eyewear). To me, making sure that apps don't screw with people, even if they don't understand how the apps work, is roughly the equivalent of making sure power drills are made safely so they don't explode in peoples' hands.
      - throw0101c 8mo ago
        > Most people couldn't tell you how their car works […] Most people couldn't tell you how their furnace or water heater works, or flush toilet (siphonic effect).
      - johnisgood 7mo ago
        And I never said that people should be knowledgeable about everything... ... and this is not what I was referring to either. Less handholding -> more learning... but even then, what I meant is that you do not have to be knowledgeable to know that your "private messages" are not really encrypted and can be read by the admin (in case of forums, for one), and so forth.

giancarlostoro 8mo ago

If you are a grown adult and dont do research on “messaging apps” (which Tik Tok is not) then thats really on you.

oarsinsync 8mo ago
If you are a grown adult and don't do research on "<insert any topic that could have a material negative impact on your life, but that is not currently on your radar as being a topic that could have a material negative impact on your life>" then that's really on you. Unfortunately, this doesn't scale.
- wizardforhire 8mo ago
  Well it does scale… just not in the way that is good for democracy.
- hogwasher 8mo ago
  It definitely ignores that many people don't have time. If someone is working over 40 hours per week, plus maybe doing unpaid labor taking care of kids or elders, where are people supposed to find the time and energy to brush up on a million different topics they don't even know they might not know enough about? Especially if they might also have medical issues, or hobbies, or want to have any time at all to relax. Obviously, one way to improve the situation would be to make sure people are paid fairly and not overworked and have access to good and affordable or free childcare and elder-care and medical care, but corporations don't want that either. If anything, they're incentivised to disempower workers and keep them uninformed, and to get as much time out of them as they can for as little money as possible.
foobarchu 8mo ago
This viewpoint isn't a slippery slope, it's a runaway train. "You moved into a neighborhood with lead pipes? That's on you, should have done more research" "Your vitamins contained undisclosed allergens? You're an adult, and it didn't say it DIDN'T contain those" "Passwords stolen because your provider stored them in plaintext? They never claimed to store them securely, so it's really on you"
- sleepybrett 8mo ago
  this isn't anything new, however. No messaging has been actually private since forever, that's why encryption was invented. To keep secrets and to pass those secrets in a way that can be observed without revealing the secret. Telephones can be tapped, people sold special boxes that would encrypt/decrypt that audio before passing it to the phone or to the ear. Mail can be opened, covertly or not. AIM was in the clear (I think at one point, fully in the clear, later probably in the clear as far as the aol servers were concerned)... Unless the app/method is directly lying to users about being e2ee it's not a slippery slope, it's the status quo. Now there are some apps out there that I think i've seen that are lying. They are claiming they are 'encrypted' but fail to clarify that it's only private on the wire, like the aim story.. the message is encrypted while it flys to the 'switchboard' where it's plain text and then it's put wrapped in encryption on the wire to send it to the recipient. The claim here that actually makes me chuckle is somehow trying to paint e2ee as 'unsafe' for users.
- AlexandrB 8mo ago
  Legislating that everyone must always be safe regardless of what app they use is a one-way ticket to walled gardens for everything. This kind of safety is the rationale behind things like secure boot, Apple's App Store, and remote attestation. Also consider what this means for open source. No hobbyist can ship an IM app if they don't go all the way and E2E encrypt (and security audit) the damn thing. The barriers of entry this creates are huge and very beneficial for the already powerful since they can afford to deal with this stuff from day one.
  - londons_explore 8mo ago
red-iron-pine 8mo ago
80% of the population does not and will never do that level of deep dive on apps same discussion for any form of technology be it TVs or changing their car's oil the deliberate app-store-ification of all things computer is also designed to keep people from asking those questions -- just download in and install, pleb. it's why the Zoomers can't email attachments or change file types: all of the computers they grew up with were designed so they never had to understand what happens under the hood.
- johnisgood 8mo ago
  And I think because of all the handholding we are left worse off.
  - hogwasher 8mo ago
    Most people couldn't tell you how their car works, at least not enough to fix it. Is that handholding, too? People can't be knowledgable about everything. There's just too much information in the world, and too many different skills that could be learned, and not enough time. A carpenter can rely on power tools without understanding fully how the tools work, and it's fine, as long as the tools are made to safe standards and the user understands basic safety instructions (e.g. wear protective eyewear). To me, making sure that apps don't screw with people, even if they don't understand how the apps work, is roughly the equivalent of making sure power drills are made safely so they don't explode in peoples' hands.
    - throw0101c 8mo ago
      > Most people couldn't tell you how their car works […] Most people couldn't tell you how their furnace or water heater works, or flush toilet (siphonic effect).
    - johnisgood 7mo ago
      And I never said that people should be knowledgeable about everything... ... and this is not what I was referring to either. Less handholding -> more learning... but even then, what I meant is that you do not have to be knowledgeable to know that your "private messages" are not really encrypted and can be read by the admin (in case of forums, for one), and so forth.