3 ms·

> But what responsibilities do megacorps have? Right now, everyone seems to avoid this question Clear, simple, direct: Whatever was required of The Bell Teleph

by acuozzo 7mo ago

> But what responsibilities do megacorps have? Right now, everyone seems to avoid this question Clear, simple, direct: Whatever was required of The Bell Telephone Company and nothing more.

ranyume 7mo ago
I'd say that at minimum social networks need to be required to show how their algorithm works and allow users control over their data. They must be able to know why a content was served to them. Nowadays social networks are so pervasive in society, affecting it and molding it to unknown interests, that this is the bare minimum for a free society. Ideally, users should be able to modify the algorithm, so they can get just what they want, while simultaneously maximizing free speech. If something isn't illegal, it shouldn't be hidden or removed.
- acuozzo 7mo ago
  > social networks need to be required to show how their algorithm works Hypothetically speaking: What if it's a neural network in which each user has his/her own unique weights which are undergoing frequent retraining? Would it not be an undue burden to necessitate the release of the weights every time they change? Also, what value would the weights have? We haven't yet hit the point of having neural networks with interpretability. Wouldn't enforcing algorithmic interpretability additionally be an undue burden? > They must be able to know why a content was served to them. What if the authors of the code are unable to tell you why?
  - BlueTemplar 7mo ago
    The use of black boxes like neural networks is already effectively illegal in some governments for this very reason.
    - acuozzo 7mo ago
      That's dumb. Who defines what a black box is? Like, is it not alright to write all of your code in a hex editor targeting one specific ISA? Is not alright to lose your code and have only the binaries to run?
- drnick1 7mo ago
  > Nowadays social networks are so pervasive in society, affecting it and molding it to unknown interests I think this is the real issue. We should free ourselves from "social networks" such as Tiktok, Facebook, Instagram and others. Even with direct messages truly E2EE, they create countless other privacy problems. They enable surveillance of people at scale and should be completely shunned for that reason alone.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
da_chicken 7mo ago
So there should be a human operator manually gatekeeping every individual request to connect with another endpoint? It's a good thing those human operators couldn't listen in to whichever conversation they wanted.
- acuozzo 7mo ago
  Human operators were not required of The Bell Telephone Company by law. Bell switched to mechanical switching stations as soon as doing so was economically advantageous. (Reconsider my post. I'm arguing for no regulation.)
  - lmz 7mo ago
    Sure. And "lawful access" intercept capabilities are also required of telcos.
  - da_chicken 7mo ago
    You're arguing for no regulation and your example is one of the most oppressive and stifling monopolies in American history?
techpression 7mo ago
I don’t remember reading about ads in phone calls, nor the complete mapping of customers behaviors to use in contexts not being the phone call. The apples to oranges in this comparison is probably top five on HN ever.
- acuozzo 7mo ago
  > nor the complete mapping of customers behaviors to use in contexts not being the phone call This is because the telephone system was regulated with wiretapping laws, among others. > I don’t remember reading about ads in phone calls See above, but also: Junk Faxes & Telemarketing/Robocalls. > The apples to oranges in this comparison is probably top five on HN ever. It all comes down to whether you view social media as a communications platform or a publishing platform. The strict regulations governing the telephone system (see above) would adequately cover both with deliciously-antique turns of phrase like "wiretap" and "pen register".
iso1631 7mo ago
Whatever was required of the new york times and nothing more. If the NYT publishes and advert or editorial, it's held accountable for the contents.
- acuozzo 7mo ago
  Touché! The question is: Are social media services more similar to communications platforms or publishing platforms? My reply obviously treats them like the former and yours like the latter.
  - iso1631 7mo ago
    Posts made are like the letters page in my view, but even if you don't believe that should be controlled, when it comes to the adverts these publish surely it has to be the latter. Personally I argue they are more like a newspaper as they are providing a platform. Your ISP is more like a phone company or postal service as they just transport packets from one person to another. Cloudflare and similar are more arguable, but to my mind if you host a computer you are responsible for the contents stored on that computer.

by acuozzo 7mo ago

> But what responsibilities do megacorps have? Right now, everyone seems to avoid this question Clear, simple, direct: Whatever was required of The Bell Telephone Company and nothing more.

ranyume 7mo ago

I'd say that at minimum social networks need to be required to show how their algorithm works and allow users control over their data. They must be able to know why a content was served to them. Nowadays social networks are so pervasive in society, affecting it and molding it to unknown interests, that this is the bare minimum for a free society. Ideally, users should be able to modify the algorithm, so they can get just what they want, while simultaneously maximizing free speech. If something isn't illegal, it shouldn't be hidden or removed.

acuozzo 7mo ago
> social networks need to be required to show how their algorithm works Hypothetically speaking: What if it's a neural network in which each user has his/her own unique weights which are undergoing frequent retraining? Would it not be an undue burden to necessitate the release of the weights every time they change? Also, what value would the weights have? We haven't yet hit the point of having neural networks with interpretability. Wouldn't enforcing algorithmic interpretability additionally be an undue burden? > They must be able to know why a content was served to them. What if the authors of the code are unable to tell you why?
- BlueTemplar 7mo ago
  The use of black boxes like neural networks is already effectively illegal in some governments for this very reason.
  - acuozzo 7mo ago
    That's dumb. Who defines what a black box is? Like, is it not alright to write all of your code in a hex editor targeting one specific ISA? Is not alright to lose your code and have only the binaries to run?
drnick1 7mo ago
> Nowadays social networks are so pervasive in society, affecting it and molding it to unknown interests I think this is the real issue. We should free ourselves from "social networks" such as Tiktok, Facebook, Instagram and others. Even with direct messages truly E2EE, they create countless other privacy problems. They enable surveillance of people at scale and should be completely shunned for that reason alone.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]

da_chicken 7mo ago

So there should be a human operator manually gatekeeping every individual request to connect with another endpoint? It's a good thing those human operators couldn't listen in to whichever conversation they wanted.

acuozzo 7mo ago
Human operators were not required of The Bell Telephone Company by law. Bell switched to mechanical switching stations as soon as doing so was economically advantageous. (Reconsider my post. I'm arguing for no regulation.)
- lmz 7mo ago
  Sure. And "lawful access" intercept capabilities are also required of telcos.
- da_chicken 7mo ago
  You're arguing for no regulation and your example is one of the most oppressive and stifling monopolies in American history?

techpression 7mo ago

I don’t remember reading about ads in phone calls, nor the complete mapping of customers behaviors to use in contexts not being the phone call. The apples to oranges in this comparison is probably top five on HN ever.

acuozzo 7mo ago
> nor the complete mapping of customers behaviors to use in contexts not being the phone call This is because the telephone system was regulated with wiretapping laws, among others. > I don’t remember reading about ads in phone calls See above, but also: Junk Faxes & Telemarketing/Robocalls. > The apples to oranges in this comparison is probably top five on HN ever. It all comes down to whether you view social media as a communications platform or a publishing platform. The strict regulations governing the telephone system (see above) would adequately cover both with deliciously-antique turns of phrase like "wiretap" and "pen register".

iso1631 7mo ago

Whatever was required of the new york times and nothing more. If the NYT publishes and advert or editorial, it's held accountable for the contents.

acuozzo 7mo ago
Touché! The question is: Are social media services more similar to communications platforms or publishing platforms? My reply obviously treats them like the former and yours like the latter.
- iso1631 7mo ago
  Posts made are like the letters page in my view, but even if you don't believe that should be controlled, when it comes to the adverts these publish surely it has to be the latter. Personally I argue they are more like a newspaper as they are providing a platform. Your ISP is more like a phone company or postal service as they just transport packets from one person to another. Cloudflare and similar are more arguable, but to my mind if you host a computer you are responsible for the contents stored on that computer.