11 ms·

Not sure how I feel about this. Motorola seems to be the exclusive provider of encrypted cellular networks and associated devices to the Israeli military [1][2]

Not sure how I feel about this. Motorola seems to be the exclusive provider of encrypted cellular networks and associated devices to the Israeli military [1][2]. I'm under the impression that basebands still require a proprietary/binary blob, basically rendering the security features of the underlying Open Source OS useless, since it sits between the user and outside connectivity. How can GrapheneOS ensure that there are no hidden backdoors (ie: Pegasus-like spyware, which was created by ex-IDF soldiers via NSO Group), etc, in the baseband? [1] https://www.whoprofits.org/companies/company/3808 https://www.whoprofits.org/companies/company/3808 [2] https://www.motorolasolutions.com/newsroom/press-releases/motorola-solutions-launches-innovation-center-in-israel.html#:~:text=Motorola%20Solutions%20in%20Israel,that%20arise%20from%20the%20field. https://www.motorolasolutions.com/newsroom/press-releases/mo...

627467 7mo ago
Motorola Solutions != motorola mobility Ill leave you to investigate how != they are
- herewulf 7mo ago
  This. I know some people who work for the former and they are always having to say "no, I don't work for that Motorola". The shared name is entirely historic.
  - RajT88 7mo ago
    Mobility is in Merchandise Mart, Solutions is in Schaumburg. Used to be anyways. (My office was a floor below in the mart)
- farkanoid 7mo ago
  I did. There's long term patent cross-licensing agreements between the two companies. Motorola mobility may be a separate company now, but they didn't start from scratch.
  - 627467 7mo ago
    > they didnt start from scratch > long term patern cross licensing > israel > pegasus Basically lots of judgment based off of superficial facts with little understanding of implications and the actual consequences of those facts.
    - farkanoid 7mo ago
      Well, you sure showed me.
      - cromka 7mo ago
        They did. You're nitpicking to not lose face while you could have easily say "OK, didn't know they were separate brands" and we'd all move on with our lives.
  - karel-3d 7mo ago
    The mororola mobility is a Chinese company with Chinese management. They bought the brand and the patent portfolio. They sure as hell are not supplying Israel or NSA.
spaqin 7mo ago
In the same way they can(not) do it on Pixel phones - and I would be surprised if Google was not already cooperating with the state actors. You do what you can. Even open source drivers (which are not gonna happen when operating within tightly regulated radio bands) won't help if there's a hardware backdoor.
- Barbing 7mo ago
  Ah nice so leave the phones in another room Easy but for missing Step 1 of “Colocate with friends and business partners”
  - lotyrin 7mo ago
    Just only ever speak in a language of your own invention that uses both cryptographic and steganographic techniques which you invented while colocated, maybe.
    - RealityVoid 7mo ago
      I can't wait until we're all mentats each speaking our custom encrypted pidgin. That will surely help with communication and world peace! Not your keys, not your speech!
  - vladms 7mo ago
    I personally am more afraid of what "someone" can convince other people to do rather than listening to me. Sadly there are enough people that are easily manipulated that probably the "smarter" people are completely ignored. If I would be to place a bet I would place it on mass propaganda targeting people below average - it might be simpler, easier and cost effective. So lots of this talk about "encryption", "privacy" might be in fact great for those "actors": smart people worry about their precious technology and principles, while "they" talk to "the masses".
- Terr_ 7mo ago
  The way I see it, I don't have much direct control over the actualities of that kind of nation-state spying stuff. However: 1. I can direct my consumer-dollars towards the vendors that promise to respect ownership and privacy in general, and they will also have the most to lose if they are caught enabling spying. 2. Defense in depth. Security features generally add to the spying's difficulty, expense, or risk of detection, and that in turn decreases the incentive for abuse.
DANmode 7mo ago
Will Graphene not require Moto to offer an IOMMU like Pixels do?
- user2722 7mo ago
  Ya, I believe that's the correct answer. I believe there is an IOMMU or equivalent on modern phones to prevent those doubts binary blobs bring.
- strcat 7mo ago
  They already have it and it isn't part of what needs to be developed. Qualcomm does that for them.
worldsavior 7mo ago
I'd say you're paranoid. Nobody cares about you, and they won't invest billions just so they can see your hot nude pictures. There are much easier ways to get information out of a phone, no need for a backdoor. If there were ever any backdoor in some phone, it would have been found. No smartphone company is gonna take that chance that someone will find their backdoor, it will literally kill the company.
- Xunjin 7mo ago
  Whether parent is paranoid or not, Pegasus literally is used to spy, just because the state might not care about his hot nude pictures does not mean they don't care about other phone usage. "While NSO Group markets Pegasus as a product for fighting crime and terrorism, governments around the world have routinely used the spyware to surveil journalists, lawyers, political dissidents, and human rights activists."[0] Information these they can be much as powerful as a bomb, for example, I could learn more about your calls and discover that you do something immoral but not illegal and use it to blackmail you. 0.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)
  - lejalv 7mo ago
    As if spying on “governments around the world have routinely used the spyware to surveil journalists, lawyers, political dissidents, and human rights activists” wasn't already alarming, Pegasus has also been used to spy elected officials. A recent court case investigating spying on 37 elected representatives [1] (including the prime minister, three ministers, and regional politicians) had to be closed in 2023 and again in 2026 “for lack of cooperation of the Israeli government”. [1] https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20220510/pegasus-espiados-sanchez-aragones-independentistas/2346612.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20220510/pegasus-espiados-sanch... (spanish) [2] https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20260122/juez-archiva-caso-pegasus-falta-colaboracion-israel/16905344.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20260122/juez-archiva-caso-pega... (spanish)
- saikia81 7mo ago
  I'm guessing you missed out on the Snowden revelations? Or the news articles about federal agents literally laughing at private dick pics. And your second paragraph seems to go on the premise that the average person care if there is a backdoor. I don't know why you wouldn't take security seriously, when even the US government is telling everyone to be careful where they supply their devices because of spying. Just don't trust them to point the finger the right way.
thisislife2 7mo ago
Let me give you another perspective - you cannot fight a foreign state that wants to hack your device and access your personal data. Even Apple iPhones, who often taut how "secure" their devices are, remain vulnerable to state spywares. A secured device, at most, will protect your data from the police or lay cracker or malware, who lack the means to use more sophisticated methods to access your data. When Android forks (like Lineage OS or Graphene OS) advertise that their Oses are more "secure", with better "data protection", what they mean is that their OSes try and prevent data leakages to the OS vendors (like Google or Apple or other BigTech) or to online services integrated with the OS or through system and user installed apps. In other words, "privacy and security" primarily means that they try and prevent surveillance capitalism.
- chpatrick 7mo ago
  Actually Graphene has been shown to be resilient (uniquely) to some of the forensic tools used by governments.
  - M95D 7mo ago
    Probably because nobody targeted them yet.
    - latentsea 7mo ago
      Which demographics do you think run GrapheneOS as a daily driver other than people who have shit to hide? They've definitely been targeted.
      - NotPractical 7mo ago
        ...apparently most of HN, judging by these recent threads?
        DANmode 7mo ago
        Yeah, I hide that I’m using apps from other spyware apps. What of it?
fsflover 7mo ago
Perhaps you may be interested in Librem 5 or Pinephone, both of which have hardware kill switches for modem and available schematics. The latter even has most of the modem software freed.
- gf000 7mo ago
  Security theater, it has absolutely no use. If you can't trust your hardware that it won't actively listen to the microphone without your knowledge and permission then what are you even doing with that device?!
  - fsflover 7mo ago
    I do trust my device. However in specific circumstances where privacy may be critical, an additional protection might save me even from a state-sponsored attack.
    - handedness 7mo ago
      If your threat model is state-sponsored then I hope for your sake you're just LARPing, because if not you're in for a bad time with some of the solutions you advocate.
      - fsflover 7mo ago
        This is just a shallow dismissal. I'm sure state actors can break into my phone. I'm also sure that they can't track or record me when kill switches are off (unless there is another device nearby). Tell me why I'm wrong and please stop repeating how surprised you are that people are so very stupid.
        handedness 7mo ago
        For kill switches on a device with otherwise comparatively abysmal security to be the better security choice over a device with thorough and comprehensive security paired with OS-level radio and sensor switches, you would have to demonstrate that the infinitely more vulnerable device's physical kill switches are somehow significantly more effective at addressing your threat model than software switches in a trustworthy OS. If they are approximately equally effective then you have given up a lot for no benefit, and are net much worse off. Again, I get the human factors appeal of physical kill switches, and if all else were equal they may be worth having, but people are place far too much faith in the value of physical kill switches.
raffael_de 7mo ago
> Not sure how I feel about this. Motorola seems to be the exclusive provider of encrypted cellular networks and associated devices to the Israeli military [1][2]. makes me feel good about it.
- Aeglaecia 7mo ago
  what exactly makes you feel good about a privacy black hole with the worlds foremost anti privacy captain at the helm ?
  - imcritic 7mo ago
    The opportunity to be blown up by your phone upon a trigger pulled by mossad. Obviously.
    - worldsavior 7mo ago
      Are you a terrorist? No? Then you have nothing to worry about :)
      - farkanoid 7mo ago
        If you have anything to hide you have nothing to fear, eh? Former Mossad Chief Yosi Cohen bragged about having booby trapped and otherwise compromised devices in pretty much every country. [1] [1] https://the307.substack.com/p/former-mossad-chief-brags-that-israel https://the307.substack.com/p/former-mossad-chief-brags-that...
        strcat 7mo ago
        You're confusing Motorola Mobility with Motorola Solutions. These haven't been part of the same company since 2011. We would happily support devices from Motorola Solutions with their collaboration too but have no contact or partnership with them as they're an entirely different company. We want to support more devices meeting our requirements and if people have issues with one of the choices due to their opinions on geopolitics they can use another.
aniviacat 7mo ago
Motorola phones are made by Motorola Mobility, not Motorola Solutions. Motorola Mobility is largely owned by the Chinese government. The Chinese government is not gonna share your data with Israel/USA. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47215079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47215079
- greenchair 7mo ago
  true, they want it for themselves
  - embedding-shape 7mo ago
    If you're not in country X which spies on you, but you live in country Y, is it preferable to have country X or Y to spy on you, given one is further away and cannot really impact your daily life, compared to the other country?
- Dectanable 7mo ago
  Israel has sold nuclear US state secrets to China. Don't hold your breath. https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe...
  - alt227 7mo ago
    Serves them right for giving confidential equipment to terrorists. The key quote in this article is: "Israel has a long record of getting U.S. military technology to China. "
M95D 7mo ago
None of it matters. If the device has a SIM card (virtual or physical), it will execute commands sent over the network. It's required by the GSM/LTE standards. The best you can hope for is to have separate SoC for the OS and separate SoC for the GSM/LTE connectivity, but that means double the power consumption. See presentation at DEFCON21 about SIM cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31D94QOo2gY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31D94QOo2gY
- Aachen 7mo ago
  defcon21 is from the pre-snowden world (2013), for anyone else wondering. Mobile landscape (our reliance on them, the central role they play in our lives) back then was a little bit different and indeed I'd not be surprised if most models support that the carrier can remotely read out any memory location or something

627467 7mo ago

Motorola Solutions != motorola mobility Ill leave you to investigate how != they are

herewulf 7mo ago
This. I know some people who work for the former and they are always having to say "no, I don't work for that Motorola". The shared name is entirely historic.
- RajT88 7mo ago
  Mobility is in Merchandise Mart, Solutions is in Schaumburg. Used to be anyways. (My office was a floor below in the mart)
farkanoid 7mo ago
I did. There's long term patent cross-licensing agreements between the two companies. Motorola mobility may be a separate company now, but they didn't start from scratch.
- 627467 7mo ago
  > they didnt start from scratch > long term patern cross licensing > israel > pegasus Basically lots of judgment based off of superficial facts with little understanding of implications and the actual consequences of those facts.
  - farkanoid 7mo ago
    Well, you sure showed me.
    - cromka 7mo ago
      They did. You're nitpicking to not lose face while you could have easily say "OK, didn't know they were separate brands" and we'd all move on with our lives.
- karel-3d 7mo ago
  The mororola mobility is a Chinese company with Chinese management. They bought the brand and the patent portfolio. They sure as hell are not supplying Israel or NSA.

spaqin 7mo ago

In the same way they can(not) do it on Pixel phones - and I would be surprised if Google was not already cooperating with the state actors. You do what you can. Even open source drivers (which are not gonna happen when operating within tightly regulated radio bands) won't help if there's a hardware backdoor.

Barbing 7mo ago
Ah nice so leave the phones in another room Easy but for missing Step 1 of “Colocate with friends and business partners”
- lotyrin 7mo ago
  Just only ever speak in a language of your own invention that uses both cryptographic and steganographic techniques which you invented while colocated, maybe.
  - RealityVoid 7mo ago
    I can't wait until we're all mentats each speaking our custom encrypted pidgin. That will surely help with communication and world peace! Not your keys, not your speech!
- vladms 7mo ago
  I personally am more afraid of what "someone" can convince other people to do rather than listening to me. Sadly there are enough people that are easily manipulated that probably the "smarter" people are completely ignored. If I would be to place a bet I would place it on mass propaganda targeting people below average - it might be simpler, easier and cost effective. So lots of this talk about "encryption", "privacy" might be in fact great for those "actors": smart people worry about their precious technology and principles, while "they" talk to "the masses".
Terr_ 7mo ago
The way I see it, I don't have much direct control over the actualities of that kind of nation-state spying stuff. However: 1. I can direct my consumer-dollars towards the vendors that promise to respect ownership and privacy in general, and they will also have the most to lose if they are caught enabling spying. 2. Defense in depth. Security features generally add to the spying's difficulty, expense, or risk of detection, and that in turn decreases the incentive for abuse.

DANmode 7mo ago

Will Graphene not require Moto to offer an IOMMU like Pixels do?

user2722 7mo ago
Ya, I believe that's the correct answer. I believe there is an IOMMU or equivalent on modern phones to prevent those doubts binary blobs bring.
strcat 7mo ago
They already have it and it isn't part of what needs to be developed. Qualcomm does that for them.

worldsavior 7mo ago

I'd say you're paranoid. Nobody cares about you, and they won't invest billions just so they can see your hot nude pictures. There are much easier ways to get information out of a phone, no need for a backdoor. If there were ever any backdoor in some phone, it would have been found. No smartphone company is gonna take that chance that someone will find their backdoor, it will literally kill the company.

Xunjin 7mo ago
Whether parent is paranoid or not, Pegasus literally is used to spy, just because the state might not care about his hot nude pictures does not mean they don't care about other phone usage. "While NSO Group markets Pegasus as a product for fighting crime and terrorism, governments around the world have routinely used the spyware to surveil journalists, lawyers, political dissidents, and human rights activists."[0] Information these they can be much as powerful as a bomb, for example, I could learn more about your calls and discover that you do something immoral but not illegal and use it to blackmail you. 0.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)
- lejalv 7mo ago
  As if spying on “governments around the world have routinely used the spyware to surveil journalists, lawyers, political dissidents, and human rights activists” wasn't already alarming, Pegasus has also been used to spy elected officials. A recent court case investigating spying on 37 elected representatives [1] (including the prime minister, three ministers, and regional politicians) had to be closed in 2023 and again in 2026 “for lack of cooperation of the Israeli government”. [1] https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20220510/pegasus-espiados-sanchez-aragones-independentistas/2346612.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20220510/pegasus-espiados-sanch... (spanish) [2] https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20260122/juez-archiva-caso-pegasus-falta-colaboracion-israel/16905344.shtml https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20260122/juez-archiva-caso-pega... (spanish)
saikia81 7mo ago
I'm guessing you missed out on the Snowden revelations? Or the news articles about federal agents literally laughing at private dick pics. And your second paragraph seems to go on the premise that the average person care if there is a backdoor. I don't know why you wouldn't take security seriously, when even the US government is telling everyone to be careful where they supply their devices because of spying. Just don't trust them to point the finger the right way.

thisislife2 7mo ago

Let me give you another perspective - you cannot fight a foreign state that wants to hack your device and access your personal data. Even Apple iPhones, who often taut how "secure" their devices are, remain vulnerable to state spywares. A secured device, at most, will protect your data from the police or lay cracker or malware, who lack the means to use more sophisticated methods to access your data. When Android forks (like Lineage OS or Graphene OS) advertise that their Oses are more "secure", with better "data protection", what they mean is that their OSes try and prevent data leakages to the OS vendors (like Google or Apple or other BigTech) or to online services integrated with the OS or through system and user installed apps. In other words, "privacy and security" primarily means that they try and prevent surveillance capitalism.

chpatrick 7mo ago
Actually Graphene has been shown to be resilient (uniquely) to some of the forensic tools used by governments.
- M95D 7mo ago
  Probably because nobody targeted them yet.
  - latentsea 7mo ago
    Which demographics do you think run GrapheneOS as a daily driver other than people who have shit to hide? They've definitely been targeted.
    - NotPractical 7mo ago
      ...apparently most of HN, judging by these recent threads?
      - DANmode 7mo ago
        Yeah, I hide that I’m using apps from other spyware apps. What of it?

fsflover 7mo ago

Perhaps you may be interested in Librem 5 or Pinephone, both of which have hardware kill switches for modem and available schematics. The latter even has most of the modem software freed.

gf000 7mo ago
Security theater, it has absolutely no use. If you can't trust your hardware that it won't actively listen to the microphone without your knowledge and permission then what are you even doing with that device?!
- fsflover 7mo ago
  I do trust my device. However in specific circumstances where privacy may be critical, an additional protection might save me even from a state-sponsored attack.
  - handedness 7mo ago
    If your threat model is state-sponsored then I hope for your sake you're just LARPing, because if not you're in for a bad time with some of the solutions you advocate.
    - fsflover 7mo ago
      This is just a shallow dismissal. I'm sure state actors can break into my phone. I'm also sure that they can't track or record me when kill switches are off (unless there is another device nearby). Tell me why I'm wrong and please stop repeating how surprised you are that people are so very stupid.
      - handedness 7mo ago
        For kill switches on a device with otherwise comparatively abysmal security to be the better security choice over a device with thorough and comprehensive security paired with OS-level radio and sensor switches, you would have to demonstrate that the infinitely more vulnerable device's physical kill switches are somehow significantly more effective at addressing your threat model than software switches in a trustworthy OS. If they are approximately equally effective then you have given up a lot for no benefit, and are net much worse off. Again, I get the human factors appeal of physical kill switches, and if all else were equal they may be worth having, but people are place far too much faith in the value of physical kill switches.

raffael_de 7mo ago

> Not sure how I feel about this. Motorola seems to be the exclusive provider of encrypted cellular networks and associated devices to the Israeli military [1][2]. makes me feel good about it.

Aeglaecia 7mo ago
what exactly makes you feel good about a privacy black hole with the worlds foremost anti privacy captain at the helm ?
- imcritic 7mo ago
  The opportunity to be blown up by your phone upon a trigger pulled by mossad. Obviously.
  - worldsavior 7mo ago
    Are you a terrorist? No? Then you have nothing to worry about :)
    - farkanoid 7mo ago
      If you have anything to hide you have nothing to fear, eh? Former Mossad Chief Yosi Cohen bragged about having booby trapped and otherwise compromised devices in pretty much every country. [1] [1] https://the307.substack.com/p/former-mossad-chief-brags-that-israel https://the307.substack.com/p/former-mossad-chief-brags-that...
      - strcat 7mo ago
        You're confusing Motorola Mobility with Motorola Solutions. These haven't been part of the same company since 2011. We would happily support devices from Motorola Solutions with their collaboration too but have no contact or partnership with them as they're an entirely different company. We want to support more devices meeting our requirements and if people have issues with one of the choices due to their opinions on geopolitics they can use another.

aniviacat 7mo ago

Motorola phones are made by Motorola Mobility, not Motorola Solutions. Motorola Mobility is largely owned by the Chinese government. The Chinese government is not gonna share your data with Israel/USA. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47215079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47215079

greenchair 7mo ago
true, they want it for themselves
- embedding-shape 7mo ago
  If you're not in country X which spies on you, but you live in country Y, is it preferable to have country X or Y to spy on you, given one is further away and cannot really impact your daily life, compared to the other country?
Dectanable 7mo ago
Israel has sold nuclear US state secrets to China. Don't hold your breath. https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe...
- alt227 7mo ago
  Serves them right for giving confidential equipment to terrorists. The key quote in this article is: "Israel has a long record of getting U.S. military technology to China. "

M95D 7mo ago

None of it matters. If the device has a SIM card (virtual or physical), it will execute commands sent over the network. It's required by the GSM/LTE standards. The best you can hope for is to have separate SoC for the OS and separate SoC for the GSM/LTE connectivity, but that means double the power consumption. See presentation at DEFCON21 about SIM cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31D94QOo2gY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31D94QOo2gY

Aachen 7mo ago
defcon21 is from the pre-snowden world (2013), for anyone else wondering. Mobile landscape (our reliance on them, the central role they play in our lives) back then was a little bit different and indeed I'd not be surprised if most models support that the carrier can remotely read out any memory location or something