4 ms·

Ridiculous. Androids are not like Apple IIs where a young kid can figure out to hack on them; in practice very young kids have absolutely no means of caring abo

Ridiculous. Androids are not like Apple IIs where a young kid can figure out to hack on them; in practice very young kids have absolutely no means of caring about whether their phone is "open" or not. The kind of openness provided by Android means absolutely nothing to a kid.

hahainternet 14y ago
Please read my comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4723333 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4723333 I am not arguing that Android in-particular is superior, just that the ability to choose the vendor of your device is a significant freedom that can be lost. I appreciate that Android always has Google as a vendor somewhere in the chain, and I'd like to see variety there too. It's possible to use App based ecosystems and respect everyone's rights at the same time. I favour an independent app store where the majority of the computing and bandwidth infrastructure is taken up by the developer. This reduces the cost of the app store so they can operate without mandatory contributions and as a result permits unlimited flexibility.
- taligent 14y ago
  But Android does have Google. And Google has been engaging in anticompetitive/illegal behaviour (FRAND patents), abusing privacy (Safari DNT) and capitulating over human rights (China). All the while basing their whole business on selling advertising. For me Google sounds like the worst company to be sharing your children's data with. No ?
  - hahainternet 14y ago
    You indict Google as if they were the only offender, however more significant anticompetitive, privacy infringing or capitulation could be pointed out of all of their competitors. Yes, Google are involved in most Android devices. They don't however mandate any dominance over the device. Using an Android device without Google's apps is not only plausible, but common.
  - zmmmmm 14y ago
    Given that all companies are evil (and they certainly all are if you cherry pick enough evidence), it seems reasonable to pick the most open, unlocked ecosystem so that at least you have the freedom to control your exposure to it, leave the system and exercise your free will.
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      The thing I've never understood about this is I have that freedom with an Apple device. If I find that I'm being constrained in ways I don't like, I simply sell it and buy something else. Absolute worst case (which is massively unlikely) I'm a few hundred dollars down (which I can afford). Realistically any unpleasant constraints would come in gradually and I'd just buy a non-Apple phone at the point I would have upgraded my iPhone and I'm not even financially down. How am I constrained in any real, meaningful sense?
      - BitMastro 14y ago
        Suppose you've bough an iMac because iTunes works much better on iOS. Now you're down a few thousand dollars. That bunch of applications on the Apple Store that gets bigger and bigger? They add up. You'll clench your teeth and try to ignore the constrains. With Google you go here http://www.dataliberation.org/ http://www.dataliberation.org/ and get everything out. Hell, you have the source for android, you can build your own system http://www.idroidproject.org/ http://www.idroidproject.org/ and use your apps as well.
      - zmmmmm 14y ago
        Well, for starters, if money is no object then everybody is free. It kind of defeats the whole point of the argument to take such an important constraint away and then pose the question "how am I constrained?". Keep in mind that Apple's whole ecosystem is closed, not just their devices. I can't read their iBooks on my Android tablet, play their games on anything but Apple hardware, etc. Even the connector is patented to control every single digital bit that travels to and from the device. So in 10 years from now you might be up for much more than "hundreds" but thousands or tens of thousands if you have accumulated your lifetime library of content there. But more seriously, your solution works only as long as there is "something else". So you're predicating the whole thing on the fact that there's an external entity out there for you to flee to. The problem is that we're moving headlong into a dystopian future where there simply isn't any ecosystem left where you can go. The least worst option at the moment is Android because it allows side loading and is open source so if Google turns evil enough you can be sure that someone else will come in and fork it to compete with them (you can argue that already happened). You can even create your own builds and deploy them to your phone if necessary. Now I'm not advocating any such extreme tin-foil type things in reality, but I do think it's vitally important we preserve at least the ability or freedom for these options to occur, because they keep all the other players honest.
  - BitMastro 14y ago
    Bias is radiating so much from your posts that I feel like I'm going to have a sunburn
css771 14y ago
Not from a hardware perspective definitely. But when a kid's interest in software is piqued at say, 9 or 10, would you rather that he/she be using an open source OS that encourages tinkering or a beautiful black box?
JVIDEL 14y ago
You are joking right? the first thing I did when I got a palm pilot when I was kid was look everywhere for hacks and apps to do stuff that it couldn't do out of the box. If I were a kid today the first thing I would do is jailbreak my iPad, a process waaaaay easier than getting on the internet and finding apps for Palm before the age of filesharing. Of course the difference being that I didn't lose the warranty on my Palm pilot for not using official software, but I would for jailbreaking my iPad. Playing farmville all day does not a hacker make, but coding your own apps? tweaking the OS? that's a great start, too bad first you have to convince your parents of letting you void the warranty on a $500 device. Good luck with that.
rcsorensen 14y ago
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506466/given-tablets-but-no-teachers-ethiopian-children-teach-themselves/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506466/given-tablets-bu... "“I thought the kids would play with the boxes. Within four minutes, one kid not only opened the box, found the on-off switch … powered it up. Within five days, they were using 47 apps per child, per day. Within two weeks, they were singing ABC songs in the village, and within five months, they had hacked Android,” Negroponte said. “Some idiot in our organization or in the Media Lab had disabled the camera, and they figured out the camera, and had hacked Android.”"

hahainternet 14y ago

Please read my comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4723333 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4723333 I am not arguing that Android in-particular is superior, just that the ability to choose the vendor of your device is a significant freedom that can be lost. I appreciate that Android always has Google as a vendor somewhere in the chain, and I'd like to see variety there too. It's possible to use App based ecosystems and respect everyone's rights at the same time. I favour an independent app store where the majority of the computing and bandwidth infrastructure is taken up by the developer. This reduces the cost of the app store so they can operate without mandatory contributions and as a result permits unlimited flexibility.

taligent 14y ago
But Android does have Google. And Google has been engaging in anticompetitive/illegal behaviour (FRAND patents), abusing privacy (Safari DNT) and capitulating over human rights (China). All the while basing their whole business on selling advertising. For me Google sounds like the worst company to be sharing your children's data with. No ?
- hahainternet 14y ago
  You indict Google as if they were the only offender, however more significant anticompetitive, privacy infringing or capitulation could be pointed out of all of their competitors. Yes, Google are involved in most Android devices. They don't however mandate any dominance over the device. Using an Android device without Google's apps is not only plausible, but common.
- zmmmmm 14y ago
  Given that all companies are evil (and they certainly all are if you cherry pick enough evidence), it seems reasonable to pick the most open, unlocked ecosystem so that at least you have the freedom to control your exposure to it, leave the system and exercise your free will.
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    The thing I've never understood about this is I have that freedom with an Apple device. If I find that I'm being constrained in ways I don't like, I simply sell it and buy something else. Absolute worst case (which is massively unlikely) I'm a few hundred dollars down (which I can afford). Realistically any unpleasant constraints would come in gradually and I'd just buy a non-Apple phone at the point I would have upgraded my iPhone and I'm not even financially down. How am I constrained in any real, meaningful sense?
    - BitMastro 14y ago
      Suppose you've bough an iMac because iTunes works much better on iOS. Now you're down a few thousand dollars. That bunch of applications on the Apple Store that gets bigger and bigger? They add up. You'll clench your teeth and try to ignore the constrains. With Google you go here http://www.dataliberation.org/ http://www.dataliberation.org/ and get everything out. Hell, you have the source for android, you can build your own system http://www.idroidproject.org/ http://www.idroidproject.org/ and use your apps as well.
    - zmmmmm 14y ago
      Well, for starters, if money is no object then everybody is free. It kind of defeats the whole point of the argument to take such an important constraint away and then pose the question "how am I constrained?". Keep in mind that Apple's whole ecosystem is closed, not just their devices. I can't read their iBooks on my Android tablet, play their games on anything but Apple hardware, etc. Even the connector is patented to control every single digital bit that travels to and from the device. So in 10 years from now you might be up for much more than "hundreds" but thousands or tens of thousands if you have accumulated your lifetime library of content there. But more seriously, your solution works only as long as there is "something else". So you're predicating the whole thing on the fact that there's an external entity out there for you to flee to. The problem is that we're moving headlong into a dystopian future where there simply isn't any ecosystem left where you can go. The least worst option at the moment is Android because it allows side loading and is open source so if Google turns evil enough you can be sure that someone else will come in and fork it to compete with them (you can argue that already happened). You can even create your own builds and deploy them to your phone if necessary. Now I'm not advocating any such extreme tin-foil type things in reality, but I do think it's vitally important we preserve at least the ability or freedom for these options to occur, because they keep all the other players honest.
- BitMastro 14y ago
  Bias is radiating so much from your posts that I feel like I'm going to have a sunburn

css771 14y ago

Not from a hardware perspective definitely. But when a kid's interest in software is piqued at say, 9 or 10, would you rather that he/she be using an open source OS that encourages tinkering or a beautiful black box?

JVIDEL 14y ago

You are joking right? the first thing I did when I got a palm pilot when I was kid was look everywhere for hacks and apps to do stuff that it couldn't do out of the box. If I were a kid today the first thing I would do is jailbreak my iPad, a process waaaaay easier than getting on the internet and finding apps for Palm before the age of filesharing. Of course the difference being that I didn't lose the warranty on my Palm pilot for not using official software, but I would for jailbreaking my iPad. Playing farmville all day does not a hacker make, but coding your own apps? tweaking the OS? that's a great start, too bad first you have to convince your parents of letting you void the warranty on a $500 device. Good luck with that.

rcsorensen 14y ago

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506466/given-tablets-but-no-teachers-ethiopian-children-teach-themselves/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506466/given-tablets-bu... "“I thought the kids would play with the boxes. Within four minutes, one kid not only opened the box, found the on-off switch … powered it up. Within five days, they were using 47 apps per child, per day. Within two weeks, they were singing ABC songs in the village, and within five months, they had hacked Android,” Negroponte said. “Some idiot in our organization or in the Media Lab had disabled the camera, and they figured out the camera, and had hacked Android.”"