6 ms·
Data does not speak to you
- LoganDark 7mo agoI wouldn't have offspring because I don't want to have anyone be born into this world; it's awful. On the other paw, I would adopt if it could help someone already having to exist in this world to lead their best life.
- kingkawn 7mo agoThey are there awaiting you to act
- nxpnsv 7mo agoBut then the next generation is all made of the people who turned this world awful. What about being the change you want? I guess if you gave an orphan a good life, that would count though.
- abcde666777 7mo agoBirth is as inevitable as existence, there is no opt out in the grander metaphysical scheme of things. Also just a thought - is that really your reason for not having them? If a person truly believes the bad outweighs the good I'm less inclined to believe them when they're still among the living, because the choice to stay alive shows they see some inherent value in the state of being alive. Personally I'm clear on why I don't want kids: because I'm a hedonist.
- dns_snek 7mo ago> the choice to stay alive shows they see some inherent value in the state of being alive. Eh, you don't choose to live any more than you choose to breathe. Even if you don't want to live anymore you can't simply "choose" to no longer be alive. There's no suicide-fairy that neatly and quietly removes you from existence on command, and that would keep taking care of anyone who's depending on you.
- cindyllm 7mo ago[dead]
- LoganDark 7mo agoThere are some countries where assisted suicide is legal, if you can afford to make it there, and can make the case that it's truly what you want and believe is right for you. But, as you've noted, that doesn't take care of dependents unless they join you... Not that it can matter to you after your end, but in many cases, the emotional weight of what one's loss could do to others can indeed discourage them from going through with it.
- card_zero 7mo agoHedonism itself isn't very clear, if basic gratification is vacuous. You end up seeking gratification through aims, because having a goal is satisfying, and then you're reintroducing values other than pure pleasure, by the back door (ooer).
- LoganDark 7mo ago> Birth is as inevitable as existence, there is no opt out in the grander metaphysical scheme of things. I can opt not to assist in one myself. That's not me having anything against birth or trying to do anything in the grander scheme of things, it's just my choice. > Also just a thought - is that really your reason for not having them? If a person truly believes the bad outweighs the good I'm less inclined to believe them when they're still among the living, because the choice to stay alive shows they see some inherent value in the state of being alive. I'm broken and mentally ill, so part of the reason I'm still among the living is because I'm conditioned to crave the pain and suffering. There is much good, and it may even outweigh the bad, and I'm still optimistic where I can be, so I'm not suicidal, but I use this existence in ways I wouldn't recommend, and couldn't condone. Basically, I wouldn't want to stick someone with it; I wouldn't want to put them in the world that created it. Even if many of my inciting events were unique to me, there is so much in the world right now that I just, don't know if my best would be able to prevent that suffering... On the other paw, when someone is already stuck with it, and already suffering, that's less of a dilemma for me, especially when their situation is so bad that I couldn't possibly count the number of ways I can make for better...
- lynx97 7mo agoYou're reeking of "positivity", please do not adopt a child.
- LoganDark 7mo agoI don't seek to adopt a child, and I probably never would. But I did meet someone who needs my help and I do intend to help them live their best life. I am not sure what "positivity" you mean, but if you mean toxic positivity, that couldn't be further from the truth. (I am closer to covert narcissist)
- kingkawn 7mo agoThe elevation of the individual as supreme to the communal is inherently anti-child rearing, the most communal of acts
- card_zero 7mo agoThen the community is creepy and it can do one.
- xannabxlle 7mo agoIf that's how you perceive child-rearing property of communities that's a shame. It takes a village to raise a child. As the african proverb goes the child that doesn't feel warmth will burn a village down to feel it.
- card_zero 7mo agoThe creepy thing is that warm community turns into individuality bad which turns into obedience.
- eigencoder 7mo agoWhy is obedience bad?
- jongjong 7mo agoThis is a great article. It's why I roll my eyes when someone asks "Show me the data" or the classic "Sources please." Unless we're literally having a debate about raw statistics, the data likely adds nothing to either side of the debate; because the data is not answering any actual questions and you can draw opposite conclusions from the same data. Just because the data appears to fit nicely to a particular mainstream narrative, that doesn't make the narrative true because one could come up with an infinite number of different narratives which provide a better fit for the data... Which narrative is more likely to be right? The one narrative which you happen to have inside your head or the infinite number of other possible narratives which you haven't even heard of? My experience is that the mainstream narrative is designed to cater to the lowest common denominator amongst the masses... Which nowadays are made up of a lot of highly educated people... But the narrative is nonetheless simplistic. There are many people out there who have had exposure to enough different data points in their lives that the mainstream narratives don't make sense to them. Your understanding of the world is narratives + data. When you say that you make decisions "entirely based on data," you're missing some crucial aspect because you're almost certainly using a narrative to fill in the many gaps in the data. Not to mention that many correlations are self-reinforcing feedback cycles without clear causality. The very idea that causality is always simple and unidirectional is itself a narrative... And I would argue an incorrect one! Yet many scientific fields are founded on this narrative! In my experience, I can't recall reading a single paper in the social sciences describing causality as "likely a self-reinforcing feedback cycle" - Even this language sounds unscientific. They're always trying to prove causality. It seems like nobody ever tries to prove "Likely a feedback cycle" because nobody likes these ambiguous answers. I suspect this is because science almost always has a financial goal behind it and people want definite answers. They want to be able to use the data to craft a narrative like "No, drug X definitely doesn't cause condition Y."
- dns_snek 7mo ago> This is a great article. It's why I roll my eyes when someone asks "Show me the data" or the classic "Sources please." That doesn't follow. Yes, there are going to be multiple interpretations of the data, however the data must exist otherwise you're just pulling claims out of thin air. Being asked to provide the data is just an easy filter for people who just say things, who only have the narrative, like "the earth is a flat disc" - okay, show me some experimental data that would show this to be true.
- card_zero 7mo agoYou don't declare your position on this issue, which irritating. What do you actually think is good or bad? It seems like you're anti-individual, pro-religion (or "telos", but that always seems to be a subset of some religion whenever you mention it), and pro-reproduction, but only as a side effect of the religion. You don't want us to be coerced, or coerced into approving of pressure to conform, but you want us to conform willingly. You want us to have a sense of place and community identity, and you want us to live like ants and reproduce a lot with diminished individualism. Why? Just because, I guess. Well, I don't want that, those aren't my values, I like individualism. You use words in odd ways (what's "formation"?) so I lose track of your meaning anyway, so maybe I got your values wrong, who knows. You're kind of shady about your values. This makes me wonder about whether having a purpose (telos) is a good value, and about the purpose of purpose. But I think wondering that is not the way forward. People have a sense of purpose innately, it just gets foggy sometimes, we don't need to tell them to have one, only tell them what it might be.
- selectively 7mo ago[flagged]
- card_zero 7mo agoWhich, mine? Why? Incidentally I give my full approval to the title of the article. Measuring things doesn't tell you answers, because it doesn't tell you theories. The idea that you can get answers from data without interpretation is logical positivism (or something associated with logical positivism), and it's nonsense, truth doesn't seep directly into our heads through our pores, we have to reason in order to be able to see any thing. But that's all an incidental lead-in to the author's views about birth rates.
- xannabxlle 7mo agoClose-minded and anti-intellectual of you.
- eigencoder 7mo agoI think "formation" is essentially a short-hand for "character formation"; I've seen the term used that way in Christian education literature and worldview studies.
- Earw0rm 7mo agoIt's a shame the author falls a little foul of the very thing he criticizes - out of a wish, perhaps, to needle individualist liberals with UnHerd-style communitarian-conservative talking points. But let's ask some more questions. The positive correlation between income and number of children, within education bands, is intriguing - and yet doesn't explain why policies intended to be pro-birth - generous financial support for young families, for example, seem to be ineffective. Even accepting that education does suppress the birth rate relative to income, increasing income ought to fix that.. but doesn't. Perhaps there's a different story here, that income and number of children within a given education bracket isn't causal - that a third factor is behind both - or even that the causal arrow points the other way: if you've got lots of kids, you _have_ to take that higher-paying job, because you need to keep them fed and housed. And there's an unspoken assumption that education = individualism, and that these are antonyms to communitarian-conservatism. Which isn't exactly true, and we can look at societies which sustain relatively high levels of both. Denmark being a case in point. Its international reputation may be free-living liberal-Scandi, but it's communitarian, place-based and in many ways conservative. Not in the obvious way along Islamic or shouty Evangelical lines - morals around sex and alcohol are relatively relaxed - but in most other respects it's a distinct, cohesive and traditionalist culture, one which places more value on faith and nation than many. They've high income, strong child support policy, and their birth rate is.. not much better than avowedly secular-liberal countries nearby. And a disproportionate number of kids are born to immigrants, which of course upsets the traditionalists. But again, look for third factors. Do immigrants have more children because they're from "that kind of culture", or does the sort of innate drive which motivates somebody to pack their bags for a new life in a new country (by no means the easy path) also motivate them to have a family? Or, flip that around, is there a "drag" factor affecting people who don't emigrate/immigrate, and that's suppressing "native" births? I certainly know more than a few people for whom that appears to be a thing, they're just kind of lightly anesthetized to life. But I've also heard it said that some folks have always been that way, and that what's driving lower birth rates is more that on one hand fewer unplanned kids are being born (because contraception, and vastly lower teen pregnancy rates), and on the other, the women who do have kids (which has never been anywhere near "all") are often having one or two less than they'd ideally like for economic reasons.
- 7mo ago
- shevy-java 7mo agoBut my computer does! The blue screen of love.
- xannabxlle 7mo agoI don't know why you're getting so much hate. Individualism is a bad thing, and collectivist societies get things done. Simple as.
- arjie 7mo agoUsually to make that theory fit the facts, the facts of who is individualist vs. who is collectivist need to be massaged greatly. I would think, however, that most people would say that the USA is much more individualist than most. And we're coming up on about a century of America as the world's pre-eminent power and perhaps the half-century of America as the undisputed world hegemon. In the end, all the smartphones, and the second amendment, and the male loneliness crisis, and all the terrible terrible signs of a society in decline did not stop the US from building 1100 F-35s, or creating all 3 of the world's most recent paradigm shifts (the Internet, the smartphone, LLM-based AI). I think one model that has some use here (I lie - really it's just one I'm fond of) is that in an explore-exploit scenario, during the periods where exploring has greatest returns individualist societies perform better because distributed search is more effective, and in periods where exploitation has greatest returns collectivist societies with simple execution structures lose less to interaction costs and therefore outperform. The poor man's Coase's Theory of the Firm. The biggest problem with it, however, is that only China has demonstrated this. Therefore, we're faced with that fun tweet: > cars have windows and can move. houses have windows and can’t move. so it’s not the windows that make the car go, it’s something else entirely
- ike____________ 7mo agoSo, it is not that difficult. People have much more info now. Life is not more difficult than before but is much more complex. There other factors like screen dopa. Only if you have a super reproductive dna or you are religion forced you are not going to have kids. If the give you money you are not going to have kids if you are too in to Elden Ring or holidays or whatever. There is too much out there. I do not think we are the final being ourselves, it is just all the small things that add up. (Sorry for the bad English, not IA corrected)
- arjie 7mo agoThere's a pattern I've noticed where relatively smart religious-adjacent people will attempt to fit things that are clearly from a religious-bent-of-mind into the structure that they believe will sell the idea to people not of that mind. I think this is one such thing. In fact, it appears to be a recurrence of the pattern that is perhaps the most common religious view for "why do people no longer have children": "it is because they don't have purpose". Usually explicitly, and often implicitly we are informed that some religion (or any religion, occasionally) has purpose. One can then dress up these arguments in the language of other philosophy - and perhaps that is the way to buttress them - but it doesn't change the fundamental idea. To lean harder into the aspects of my 'formation' by contrast, I think one can seek more parsimonious views. My personal pet theory is that it's all opportunity cost. Here are the assumptions: # The joy inherent to being a parent is prosperity-independent # Benefit from the rest of society is positive-correlated to prosperity # Late gestation and the early stages of parenthood affect the ability to access benefit from society So you can vary the outcome by varying the parameters: * Make a society richer, c.p., and you miss out on more things * Make a society more culturally oriented around families and you reduce the impact of #3 * Pay people to substitute for parental responsibilities and you reduce the impact of #3 * Remove individual freedom and a reckoning of utility no longer determines fertility I did not know that parents in higher-income groups in the same education stratum have higher fertility. It's not obvious which way the coin lands on that, admittedly. Years off work are more costly the more successful your career. But also if you're sufficiently successful, you have access to more resources that permit you still access society's utility. Certainly my friends pay $90k for a nanny and you're not going to get that unless you hit some level of income. Anyway, I have a lovely daughter, and I am eager to have another. I think it is a greatly enjoyable experience to parent, and I suspect there is some aspect to sociocultural contagion here because women have told my wife "watching how cute your baby is has made want one too" and things like that. Here's a blog post about the opportunity cost thing to make it clear I didn't just come up with it as a middle-brow dismissal in reaction (if it is middle-brow it is wholly so ex nihilo) https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Blog/2025-02-14/Fertility_Rate https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Blog/2025-02-14/Fertility_Ra... And here's a little bit more about what it's like to walk around as a father in a city with some of the fewest children per capita in the US. https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Blog/2025-08-06/The_Latent_Demand_For_Babies https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Blog/2025-08-06/The_Latent_D...
- Kim_Bruning 7mo agoTantaman's work is a very interesting block of research on why one group buys into the demographic transition more than some others. I think it's an interesting angle. On interpreting data, seems like they're coming at LessWrong from a different angle? Bayes? Scientific Method? [1] A bit more detail: Demographic transition has been an explicit policy goal for decades. I imagine most moderate+ people have bought into the family planning concept. Yes the logistic equation predicts it could happen automatically too [1]. And no, collectively we've decided we don't want to find out for sure. Some conservative confessionals just haven't bought into it. Because fair-or-not they might not buy into anything without a century of thought first. This pretty much covers a big chunk of Tantaman's data from a different angle I think. [1] All methods that study how priors shape what you explore. [2] For instance: house, food, and fuel prices are signals for this kind of thing. I can imagine lots of conversations going "Can we really afford one more? We're up short as is!"
- Kim_Bruning 7mo agoReading further, I might be being too charitable. Demographics are under government control, at very least at the dP/dt level. Much of the causality should be sought there. Contraception, abortion access, immigration policy, tax incentives, childcare subsidies, parental leave, housing policy, education funding, propaganda. The levers are endless. Until recently most governments were simply trying to level off their population. They may have succeeded a bit too well, but that's another story. Somehow -in their essays so far- Tantaman has left out government policy almost entirely, which is a big elephant in the room to miss.