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I guess northern Europe must be an unpopulated wasteland where everybody's health just instantly declines. I find these explanations to these studies so bizarr

by Aerroon 8mo ago

I guess northern Europe must be an unpopulated wasteland where everybody's health just instantly declines. I find these explanations to these studies so bizarre. We know that there are large populations living significantly further north, who don't get sunlight in the morning in winter, no matter whether there's DST or not. We also know that they get almost perpetual light during summer. If these explanations were true then you would expect a country like Sweden to have an impact on life expectancy and illness from this. But it's not. It's about as rich as Canada and has about the same life expectancy.

throw0101c 8mo ago
The European Biological Rhythms Society (EBRS), European Sleep Research Society (ESRS), and Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) put out a joint statement that recommends all-year Standard Time in the EU: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... I would hazard to guess some of those folks have looked at data for northern Europe and took it into account when forming their conclusions.
- indecisive_user 8mo ago
  I think you're missing the parent's point. Cities in northern Europe, like Stockholm and Oslo, already have sunrise times as late or later than Vancouver will have under permanent DST. If the effects of shifting the clock an hour are as extreme as purported, then we should already see those negative health effects in populations that live their entire lives under those conditions, but we don't.
  - chpatrick 8mo ago
    Suicide rate is higher in northern countries.
  - Fargren 8mo ago
    Do we know that we don't see adverse health effects on those populations? I couldn't find any studies on the subject. I think it would be very hard to measure, since you can't really compare without comparing populations of different countries, and at that point any effects can be attributed to a myriad of differences between countries.
  - throw0101c 8mo ago
    > I think you're missing the parent's point. I'm not missing the point: the various various folks who study sleep and chronobiology would have (I hope) reviewed all the literature, including studies that cover northern Europe, before coming to their all-year Standard Time conclusion. A position paper from Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) in Journal of Biological Rhythms cites Russian data for example: > Borisenkov MF, Tserne TA, Panev AS, Kuznetsova ES, Petrova NB, Timonin VD, Kolomeichuk SN, Vinogradova IA, Kovyazina MS, Khokhlov NA, et al. (2017) Seven-year survey of sleep timing in Russian children and adolescents: chronic 1-h forward transition of social clock is associated with increased social jetlag and winter pattern of mood seasonality. Biol Rhythm Res 3–12. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... Last time I checked a map (parts/lots of) Russia is just as north as Finland, Sweden, and Norway, and still the Russian government decided to rollback all-year DST. Perhaps the effects differ in magnitude depending on geographic region, but as a general rule all-year Standard Time appears to be the best policy for most people most of the time.
  - sampo 8mo ago
    Here is a circadian rhythm and sleep scientist in Finland, arguing for permanent standard time. https://blogi.thl.fi/kellojen-siirtaminen-pysyvasti-talviaikaan-olisi-terveydelle-parasta/ https://blogi.thl.fi/kellojen-siirtaminen-pysyvasti-talviaik...
rtpg 8mo ago
I mean it's possible for there to be bad health effects from something without it outright killing everyone. This is why things like hygiene are tough! You can have terrible hygiene and still be alive for a long time. Perhaps if Sweden adopted a different policy it would have an even longer life expectancy!
- lucumo 8mo ago
  > Perhaps if Sweden adopted a different policy it would have an even longer life expectancy! The policy of being between 55 and 69 N? I'm not sure the world is ready for another viking age. Joking aside, GPs point was that Sweden has long nights and long days. Based on the studies you'd expect life expectancy to be worse there than in more Southern parts, like most of Canada. It isn't.

by Aerroon 8mo ago

throw0101c 8mo ago

The European Biological Rhythms Society (EBRS), European Sleep Research Society (ESRS), and Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) put out a joint statement that recommends all-year Standard Time in the EU: * https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commission_on_DST.pdf https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss... I would hazard to guess some of those folks have looked at data for northern Europe and took it into account when forming their conclusions.

indecisive_user 8mo ago
I think you're missing the parent's point. Cities in northern Europe, like Stockholm and Oslo, already have sunrise times as late or later than Vancouver will have under permanent DST. If the effects of shifting the clock an hour are as extreme as purported, then we should already see those negative health effects in populations that live their entire lives under those conditions, but we don't.
- chpatrick 8mo ago
  Suicide rate is higher in northern countries.
- Fargren 8mo ago
  Do we know that we don't see adverse health effects on those populations? I couldn't find any studies on the subject. I think it would be very hard to measure, since you can't really compare without comparing populations of different countries, and at that point any effects can be attributed to a myriad of differences between countries.
- throw0101c 8mo ago
  > I think you're missing the parent's point. I'm not missing the point: the various various folks who study sleep and chronobiology would have (I hope) reviewed all the literature, including studies that cover northern Europe, before coming to their all-year Standard Time conclusion. A position paper from Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) in Journal of Biological Rhythms cites Russian data for example: > Borisenkov MF, Tserne TA, Panev AS, Kuznetsova ES, Petrova NB, Timonin VD, Kolomeichuk SN, Vinogradova IA, Kovyazina MS, Khokhlov NA, et al. (2017) Seven-year survey of sleep timing in Russian children and adolescents: chronic 1-h forward transition of social clock is associated with increased social jetlag and winter pattern of mood seasonality. Biol Rhythm Res 3–12. * https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541... Last time I checked a map (parts/lots of) Russia is just as north as Finland, Sweden, and Norway, and still the Russian government decided to rollback all-year DST. Perhaps the effects differ in magnitude depending on geographic region, but as a general rule all-year Standard Time appears to be the best policy for most people most of the time.
- sampo 8mo ago
  Here is a circadian rhythm and sleep scientist in Finland, arguing for permanent standard time. https://blogi.thl.fi/kellojen-siirtaminen-pysyvasti-talviaikaan-olisi-terveydelle-parasta/ https://blogi.thl.fi/kellojen-siirtaminen-pysyvasti-talviaik...

rtpg 8mo ago

I mean it's possible for there to be bad health effects from something without it outright killing everyone. This is why things like hygiene are tough! You can have terrible hygiene and still be alive for a long time. Perhaps if Sweden adopted a different policy it would have an even longer life expectancy!

lucumo 8mo ago
> Perhaps if Sweden adopted a different policy it would have an even longer life expectancy! The policy of being between 55 and 69 N? I'm not sure the world is ready for another viking age. Joking aside, GPs point was that Sweden has long nights and long days. Based on the studies you'd expect life expectancy to be worse there than in more Southern parts, like most of Canada. It isn't.