4 ms·

> Unless stated otherwise, none of the published devices has passed regulatory certification, so use them at your own risk and responsibility This somewhat lim

by danw1979 8mo ago

> Unless stated otherwise, none of the published devices has passed regulatory certification, so use them at your own risk and responsibility This somewhat limits the usefulness of the hardware anywhere you need to be insured, e.g. your house, boat or van.

fred_is_fred 7mo ago
How hard is it to get stuff certified by UL? I would assume expensive and time consuming but don't really know.
- aeblyve 7mo ago
  I don't know much about UL but I can say that FCC certification (also technically required) for electronics can range from about $3k to something like $30k depending on what you're doing. ($3k would be for "unintentional radiator" device, i.e., not supposed to be a radio, $30k would be for "intentional radiator" device, i.e., supposed to be a radio)
  - Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
    Because of customs product import rules, that FCC stamp is often not optional. Now if it was a dodgy seller, the stamp will not match the physical devices on rare occasion. =3
  - cheema33 7mo ago
    FCC ensures a product doesn't cause radio interference, while UL ensures the product is safe to use and won't cause fires or electric shocks. For DIY, your primary concern is UL certification.
  - DamonHD 7mo ago
    That roughly lines up with what we paid* to get CE and safety stuff done for a small battery-powered product with a radio on the EU market (primarily in the UK). *Testing and tweaking and then sign-off in grown-up labs.
- Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
  In general, almost all insurance companies will demand UL stamped hardware, and most mortgage/lease/commercial property requires insurance. A hobby BMS is usually a bad idea, as most kits from unknown origins prioritized cost over safety. Depending where you live, prior to roof installation there may be additional zoning and signed engineering drawing requirements. It is not hard to find UL equipment, but expect to pay about another $600 for the BMS. Yet, it is better than a house burning down, and the insurance provider denying coverage. Have a look at local certified installer companies, and make sure to get some real references in your town. Just like most HVAC companies... some installers are just over priced scams. Some folks claim https://www.pegasussolar.com/ https://www.pegasussolar.com/ was inexpensive, and might be worth a call. Best regards =3
  - bluGill 7mo ago
    It doesn't have to be a certified install company in many places, it just needs to be inspected which most states will do for homeowners. (if your area is different contact your representative) UL or other certification is a very good idea. They can't automatically deny coverage for lack of certification, but it becomes a much harder fight for you to prove the non-certified equipment wasn't at fault.
- pocksuppet 7mo ago
  I think expensive and time consuming, but not necessarily difficult, if the product is already safe.
bityard 7mo ago
This is for DIYers and enthusiasts, not someone looking for an off-the-shelf box. (Also, Amazon is where most people get their solar equipment these days and you would be amazed how much of it is not UL certified either.)
- ktm5j 7mo ago
  DIYers and enthusiasts should still worry about their house burning down because one of these boards started a fire. An insurance company would investigate and find any excuse they can to deny payment.
  - Dan_- 7mo ago
    Should is doing a lot of work there. The reality is most don’t. These are people who don’t understand minimum conductor size trying to DIY a solar system.
  - mindslight 7mo ago
    Insurance covers the insured's own gross negligence. This is a trope up there with believing the "warranty void if removed" stickers. The real reason this should give you pause is that you don't want your house to burn down regardless of an insurance payout. That is how your incentives remain aligned with the insurance company.
    - thedougd 7mo ago
      The other one that drives me nuts is “sensitive electronics” in generator discussions.
      - mindslight 7mo ago
        Do conventional synchronous generators not cause the problems they purportedly do? I've got an inverter generator simply for fuel usage. I've certainly had my fair share of square wave UPSs and devices that don't work on them.
martinjaeger 7mo ago
That's basically what most software Open Sorce projects state in their licenses as well: Use at your own risk. As someone who publishes design files openly you really don't want to be liable if someone uses the hardware in a wrong way. That being said, the Libre Solar components are also meant to be used as the basis for customization (hence, called building blocks). Some of the devices are used with minor modifications in certified commercial products. Apart from boats/caravans, DC systems are used a lot for rural electrification in the global south. This is also where the communication features of Zephyr RTOS are very important.
- danw1979 7mo ago
  this is a really good point that I neglected in my original dismissal of the project: it's going to be super useful for DIYers and small shops in the less regulated parts of the world.
MisterTea 7mo ago
> This somewhat limits the usefulness of the hardware anywhere you need to be insured, e.g. your house, boat or van. Same goes for all the random Chinese inverters people are buying and installing in their Homes, Boats and Vans. Doesn't seem to stop them.
- throawayonthe 7mo ago
  those are usually certified?
  - Rebelgecko 7mo ago
    Definitely not UL (if we're talking about the $300 inverters on Amazon or AliExpress from companies like Anenji)
  - stephen_g 7mo ago
    The cheap stuff usually have the certification labels printed on them, but a cursory look inside usually shows breaches if you know what to look for (like we have had stuff from China where the ground wire wasn't connected to anything, but even if that's right there are things like just not having enough clearance between mains and isolated DC in power supplies etc.). So they are definitely not actually certified, they just slap the labels on anyway. Of course, there is a rising group of actually really high-quality native brands starting to come out of China - Anker were an early one of these, Xiaomi is a massive one, UGreen is really popular on Amazon etc. These kind of brands actually will be properly certified and are scary good for how cheap they are. So it's changing a lot.
    - seb1204 7mo ago
      I thought Anker and UGreen are Amazon brands by now?
- danw1979 7mo ago
  So in the UK you won’t get sign off from building control if your electrician uses a dodgy uncertified device, and that results in your insurance being invalidated, at least according to my policy.
mcbishop 7mo ago
Not that this is accepted by insurers or AHJs ("authorities having jurisdiction"), but one can use UL-certified components in an (open-source) _assembly_ that itself isn't UL certified. This at least supports the argument that the overall product is safe if thoughtfully designed and assembled. An example is the OpenEVSE level-2 car charger (which I had a really good experience with).
stephen_g 7mo ago
If you're not selling them then there isn't really any certification requirements until you start to get into the mains voltages. This all seems to be 12/24V DC stuff on the battery side and 60V DC on the solar side which comes under 'extra-low voltage' in basically every jurisdiction which is usually not really regulated because it's difficult to shock someone. The battery stuff is more risky (bringing lithium cells into the picture) but I don't think anyone should be worried by the MPPTs.
ghtbircshotbe 7mo ago
There's nothing stopping a company from creating products based on these, and having them certified, assuming they satisfy the requirements for certification (which if they don't you probably don't want to put it in your house anyway). I'm not familiar with the cern hardware license, but it appears to allow commercialization.
linsomniac 7mo ago
One component I haven't seen discussed here is that you also likely can't use them for anything but entirely off-grid setups. I've heard that in our locality, and I think this is pretty common around the US, that they won't permit you, and the utility won't allow grid tie of anything at all sketchy, including UL listed panels you buy used.

fred_is_fred 7mo ago

How hard is it to get stuff certified by UL? I would assume expensive and time consuming but don't really know.

aeblyve 7mo ago
I don't know much about UL but I can say that FCC certification (also technically required) for electronics can range from about $3k to something like $30k depending on what you're doing. ($3k would be for "unintentional radiator" device, i.e., not supposed to be a radio, $30k would be for "intentional radiator" device, i.e., supposed to be a radio)
- Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
  Because of customs product import rules, that FCC stamp is often not optional. Now if it was a dodgy seller, the stamp will not match the physical devices on rare occasion. =3
- cheema33 7mo ago
  FCC ensures a product doesn't cause radio interference, while UL ensures the product is safe to use and won't cause fires or electric shocks. For DIY, your primary concern is UL certification.
- DamonHD 7mo ago
  That roughly lines up with what we paid* to get CE and safety stuff done for a small battery-powered product with a radio on the EU market (primarily in the UK). *Testing and tweaking and then sign-off in grown-up labs.
Joel_Mckay 7mo ago
In general, almost all insurance companies will demand UL stamped hardware, and most mortgage/lease/commercial property requires insurance. A hobby BMS is usually a bad idea, as most kits from unknown origins prioritized cost over safety. Depending where you live, prior to roof installation there may be additional zoning and signed engineering drawing requirements. It is not hard to find UL equipment, but expect to pay about another $600 for the BMS. Yet, it is better than a house burning down, and the insurance provider denying coverage. Have a look at local certified installer companies, and make sure to get some real references in your town. Just like most HVAC companies... some installers are just over priced scams. Some folks claim https://www.pegasussolar.com/ https://www.pegasussolar.com/ was inexpensive, and might be worth a call. Best regards =3
- bluGill 7mo ago
  It doesn't have to be a certified install company in many places, it just needs to be inspected which most states will do for homeowners. (if your area is different contact your representative) UL or other certification is a very good idea. They can't automatically deny coverage for lack of certification, but it becomes a much harder fight for you to prove the non-certified equipment wasn't at fault.
pocksuppet 7mo ago
I think expensive and time consuming, but not necessarily difficult, if the product is already safe.

bityard 7mo ago

This is for DIYers and enthusiasts, not someone looking for an off-the-shelf box. (Also, Amazon is where most people get their solar equipment these days and you would be amazed how much of it is not UL certified either.)

ktm5j 7mo ago
DIYers and enthusiasts should still worry about their house burning down because one of these boards started a fire. An insurance company would investigate and find any excuse they can to deny payment.
- Dan_- 7mo ago
  Should is doing a lot of work there. The reality is most don’t. These are people who don’t understand minimum conductor size trying to DIY a solar system.
- mindslight 7mo ago
  Insurance covers the insured's own gross negligence. This is a trope up there with believing the "warranty void if removed" stickers. The real reason this should give you pause is that you don't want your house to burn down regardless of an insurance payout. That is how your incentives remain aligned with the insurance company.
  - thedougd 7mo ago
    The other one that drives me nuts is “sensitive electronics” in generator discussions.
    - mindslight 7mo ago
      Do conventional synchronous generators not cause the problems they purportedly do? I've got an inverter generator simply for fuel usage. I've certainly had my fair share of square wave UPSs and devices that don't work on them.

martinjaeger 7mo ago

That's basically what most software Open Sorce projects state in their licenses as well: Use at your own risk. As someone who publishes design files openly you really don't want to be liable if someone uses the hardware in a wrong way. That being said, the Libre Solar components are also meant to be used as the basis for customization (hence, called building blocks). Some of the devices are used with minor modifications in certified commercial products. Apart from boats/caravans, DC systems are used a lot for rural electrification in the global south. This is also where the communication features of Zephyr RTOS are very important.

danw1979 7mo ago
this is a really good point that I neglected in my original dismissal of the project: it's going to be super useful for DIYers and small shops in the less regulated parts of the world.

MisterTea 7mo ago

> This somewhat limits the usefulness of the hardware anywhere you need to be insured, e.g. your house, boat or van. Same goes for all the random Chinese inverters people are buying and installing in their Homes, Boats and Vans. Doesn't seem to stop them.

throawayonthe 7mo ago
those are usually certified?
- Rebelgecko 7mo ago
  Definitely not UL (if we're talking about the $300 inverters on Amazon or AliExpress from companies like Anenji)
- stephen_g 7mo ago
  The cheap stuff usually have the certification labels printed on them, but a cursory look inside usually shows breaches if you know what to look for (like we have had stuff from China where the ground wire wasn't connected to anything, but even if that's right there are things like just not having enough clearance between mains and isolated DC in power supplies etc.). So they are definitely not actually certified, they just slap the labels on anyway. Of course, there is a rising group of actually really high-quality native brands starting to come out of China - Anker were an early one of these, Xiaomi is a massive one, UGreen is really popular on Amazon etc. These kind of brands actually will be properly certified and are scary good for how cheap they are. So it's changing a lot.
  - seb1204 7mo ago
    I thought Anker and UGreen are Amazon brands by now?
danw1979 7mo ago
So in the UK you won’t get sign off from building control if your electrician uses a dodgy uncertified device, and that results in your insurance being invalidated, at least according to my policy.

mcbishop 7mo ago

Not that this is accepted by insurers or AHJs ("authorities having jurisdiction"), but one can use UL-certified components in an (open-source) _assembly_ that itself isn't UL certified. This at least supports the argument that the overall product is safe if thoughtfully designed and assembled. An example is the OpenEVSE level-2 car charger (which I had a really good experience with).

stephen_g 7mo ago

If you're not selling them then there isn't really any certification requirements until you start to get into the mains voltages. This all seems to be 12/24V DC stuff on the battery side and 60V DC on the solar side which comes under 'extra-low voltage' in basically every jurisdiction which is usually not really regulated because it's difficult to shock someone. The battery stuff is more risky (bringing lithium cells into the picture) but I don't think anyone should be worried by the MPPTs.

ghtbircshotbe 7mo ago

There's nothing stopping a company from creating products based on these, and having them certified, assuming they satisfy the requirements for certification (which if they don't you probably don't want to put it in your house anyway). I'm not familiar with the cern hardware license, but it appears to allow commercialization.

linsomniac 7mo ago

One component I haven't seen discussed here is that you also likely can't use them for anything but entirely off-grid setups. I've heard that in our locality, and I think this is pretty common around the US, that they won't permit you, and the utility won't allow grid tie of anything at all sketchy, including UL listed panels you buy used.