5 ms·

So, this got posted again I see. A few years later: the pack is still going strong and has not - so far - shown any signs of wear. I've put close to 15000 Km on

So, this got posted again I see. A few years later: the pack is still going strong and has not - so far - shown any signs of wear. I've put close to 15000 Km on it now and there is no degradation worth mentioning, though I suspect that if I do a precise capacity measurement that it would definitely show some reduced capacity. The really neat thing is that at the end of a long ride the cell groups still track to within 2 mV of each other, which is a strong sign that all cell groups are discharging equally fast and that there are no cells or welds that are causing problems. Of course with 17P the cells are only mildly exercised compared to what they would be going through in a regular pack.

jadenPete 8mo ago
I'm curious, how much does this weigh? I've ridden e-bikes a few times, and it's always surprising how much heavier they are than ordinary bikes. I can't imagine how heavy this must be.
- medi8r 8mo ago
  Yeah the assistance you get from a bike being light is huge. I wonder if expensive light bike > assisted bike in terms of saving human effort per trip. Obviously if the e-bike requires no pedalling at all it wins but then that is not legal everywhere.
  - Panzer04 8mo ago
    Human effort just isn't worth very much. The strongest humans on earth can manage about 400W for an hour. Even very small ebike motors are usually capable of 500w continuous/forever, so long as the motor does not spend too much time stalled or at very low speeds. For a normal human, a "legal" 250w motor is easily doubling or tripling their normal power output, so hauling around an extra 20kg on top of the existing ~100kg body + bike is not a big deal.
    - fgfarben 8mo ago
      A heavy battery makes an ebike extremely unpleasant to pedal manually. You should try it. I built almost exactly the same size pack (2 kWH) as Jacques in 2020 on a hybrid road bike and hated it so much that I only rode it 20 times or so. The battery still sits in the corner of my house doing nothing.
      - lukan 8mo ago
        On a flat road I disagree, but uphill you notice it a lot of course, but way worse is carrying the heavy bike. I take mine into trains a lot and unfortunately there are often lots of stairs and no escalators involved.
        jacquesm 8mo ago
        I would never take this one into a train. I'm pretty sure it is a better pack (and much better monitored) than a store bought one given what I've seen inside of those but still, the amount of energy stored in there is pretty impressive and just the thought of it going into thermal runaway is enough to ensure that will never expose other people to it.
        lukan 8mo ago
        That is very considerate of you, but my bike has a very small standard battery (in comparison). Still, it would be good if trains offered a way to store the bikes in a special place away from people (at the end of the train for instance) so this won't be an issue.
        jacquesm 8mo ago
        Have a look at some videos of what it looks like when a pack lights off in an enclosed space. You'll come away equal parts impressed and horrified, especially at the speed and the intensity.
        8mo ago
  - saidinesh5 8mo ago
    I think the main difference due to weight boils down to you riding in one gear lower when not using assistance. On flat roads, I usually ride on 3rd or 4th gear (out of 7), now i ride in 2nd or 3rd. But where i ride, the road isn't even and has a lot of steep slopes. There I'm on 1st gear all the time anyway and the assistance i get totally saves my knees, and ensures I'm not all sweaty when i reach my destination. Even compared to the light weight regular bicycles i rode before, this is better.
    - jacquesm 8mo ago
      Once at speed you can maintain tempo in the highest gear on this bike. It does consume a lot of power that way but it is also really neat to be doing a 65 km ride in what is much less than twice the time that it takes to do that same trip by car.
- orbital-decay 8mo ago
  190 cells is 9-9.5kg, a mid-drive motor like the one in the picture is typically 3-7kg depending on power. This is roughly 12-17kg/26-37lbs of extra weight plus the enclosure, electronics, and wiring.
- jacquesm 8mo ago
  170 cells, they're 45 grams each, the pack mounting hardware and box adds another two kilos or so, so say 10 Kg in all for the pack. Definitely not a lightweight :) But once it's going you hardly notice the weight other than when you have a pothole or bump. It also obviously isn't as nimble as a lighter bike but it is still very well manageable because the weight is relatively low. What's interesting is that the duct tape is still the same, it never even cracked or tear. I don't particularly care about the looks, it just needs to work.
0xWTF 8mo ago
What surface conditions do you ride this in? I spent this morning on my Specialized Levo (1) and ran down the entire battery over the course of about 2.5 hours, covering 36 km and 1400 meters of elevation, much of the downhill being at "mach chicken", with drops, doubles, locked up dirt surfing, etc. There is 0% probability I would take this long range e-bike to that terrain. Which is fine. But I'm pretty sure your frame wasn't designed to carry this 22 pound battery or anything like it, so are you exclusively riding this on buttery smooth Dutch roads? (1) a few years old now, but keeps up with my buddy riding the new-new version https://upway.co/products/specialized-turbo-levo-comp-carbon-rr0mh3 https://upway.co/products/specialized-turbo-levo-comp-carbon...
- jacquesm 8mo ago
  Bikepaths, mostly.
  - 0xWTF 8mo ago
    To be clear, I really envy you the buttery smooth Dutch roads.
- leoedin 8mo ago
  > I'm pretty sure your frame wasn't designed to carry this 22 pound battery or anything like it Presumably bike frames are designed to carry larger riders? 22 pounds is well within the normal range of "adult". Apparently most bike frames are designed for riders up to 120kg - so the OP could easily be 40+kg below that.
  - 0xWTF 8mo ago
    Bicycle frames are highly optimized to have the loads concentrated at specific points, namely the seat, bottom bracket, and wheels. The lugs are heavy, and the tubes are very thin almost everywhere else. This appears to be putting load at focal points along the thin wall regions. Every time you hit a bump, the battery hits the frame, like hitting the thin wall of a soda can with a hammer.
rsynnott 8mo ago
> I hope this article will inspire people to look at e-bikes as potentially commuter car replacement, to send Bosch and other e-bike technology manufacturers a message that if they won’t supply what people need that they are going to have to live with people hacking their stuff Did this ever happen?
- jacquesm 8mo ago
  Commercially, no, but I have been asked for a lot more details and pack building advice over the years and there are quite a few of these now, as far away as Japan and the United States, and of course not everybody will contact me so in that sense it was a success. The pictures tell the story, really, the most important thing is to handle the balancing wires correctly, that's a 'minor detail' that unfortunately even professional designers often get wrong with really bad outcomes as the result. Balancing wires and physical damage to the pack because of insufficient rigidity of the shell and a lack of shock absorbing material are the main causes of pack problems, water ingestion and bad materials / manufacturing defects are also a real problem. The balancing wires, shell rigidity, shock absorbers and seals are all on the manufacturer, how you treat the pack and monitor it is on the user. The worst are the pannier mounted ones, I personally think these should all be recalled and replaced. I've seen more than a few of those that had internal signs of fire damage and that must have come within a hair of thermal runaway.
neya 8mo ago
The setup looks lovely! How heavy is it in real life? Just curious. Is it, say, as heavy as a small moped or motorcycle or not that big of a deal? My only fear of trying this out is if the bike falls on its side, how difficult it might be to lift it back up. TIA
- jacquesm 8mo ago
  Much lighter than a moped, but way heavier than a normal bike, I estimate the total to weigh about 33 Kg, but there is a big set of bike bags on there as well.
  - neya 8mo ago
    Thanks! I'm also currently exploring drivetrain options. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm working on implementing an e-CVT like in the Toyotas, they are actually super efficient and very comfy. I'm not really a fan of hub motors, so I went with some smaller out-runners. Your project has forced me to resume my gearbox project now :)
    - jacquesm 8mo ago
      There is - or was - a Finnish company doing precisely that. Google 'Revonte', amazing little product they made.
      - neya 8mo ago
        Thanks, will check it out. BTW, been your follower since early in the decade. Love your content!
        jacquesm 8mo ago
        Thank you :)
  - viranchee 8mo ago
    How much is the weight when the pack is fully charged? xD
brador 8mo ago
How’s your sperm? That’s quite a strong field. R squared and all that.

jadenPete 8mo ago

I'm curious, how much does this weigh? I've ridden e-bikes a few times, and it's always surprising how much heavier they are than ordinary bikes. I can't imagine how heavy this must be.

medi8r 8mo ago
Yeah the assistance you get from a bike being light is huge. I wonder if expensive light bike > assisted bike in terms of saving human effort per trip. Obviously if the e-bike requires no pedalling at all it wins but then that is not legal everywhere.
- Panzer04 8mo ago
  Human effort just isn't worth very much. The strongest humans on earth can manage about 400W for an hour. Even very small ebike motors are usually capable of 500w continuous/forever, so long as the motor does not spend too much time stalled or at very low speeds. For a normal human, a "legal" 250w motor is easily doubling or tripling their normal power output, so hauling around an extra 20kg on top of the existing ~100kg body + bike is not a big deal.
  - fgfarben 8mo ago
    A heavy battery makes an ebike extremely unpleasant to pedal manually. You should try it. I built almost exactly the same size pack (2 kWH) as Jacques in 2020 on a hybrid road bike and hated it so much that I only rode it 20 times or so. The battery still sits in the corner of my house doing nothing.
    - lukan 8mo ago
      On a flat road I disagree, but uphill you notice it a lot of course, but way worse is carrying the heavy bike. I take mine into trains a lot and unfortunately there are often lots of stairs and no escalators involved.
      - jacquesm 8mo ago
        I would never take this one into a train. I'm pretty sure it is a better pack (and much better monitored) than a store bought one given what I've seen inside of those but still, the amount of energy stored in there is pretty impressive and just the thought of it going into thermal runaway is enough to ensure that will never expose other people to it.
        lukan 8mo ago
        That is very considerate of you, but my bike has a very small standard battery (in comparison). Still, it would be good if trains offered a way to store the bikes in a special place away from people (at the end of the train for instance) so this won't be an issue.
        jacquesm 8mo ago
        Have a look at some videos of what it looks like when a pack lights off in an enclosed space. You'll come away equal parts impressed and horrified, especially at the speed and the intensity.
        8mo ago
- saidinesh5 8mo ago
  I think the main difference due to weight boils down to you riding in one gear lower when not using assistance. On flat roads, I usually ride on 3rd or 4th gear (out of 7), now i ride in 2nd or 3rd. But where i ride, the road isn't even and has a lot of steep slopes. There I'm on 1st gear all the time anyway and the assistance i get totally saves my knees, and ensures I'm not all sweaty when i reach my destination. Even compared to the light weight regular bicycles i rode before, this is better.
  - jacquesm 8mo ago
    Once at speed you can maintain tempo in the highest gear on this bike. It does consume a lot of power that way but it is also really neat to be doing a 65 km ride in what is much less than twice the time that it takes to do that same trip by car.
orbital-decay 8mo ago
190 cells is 9-9.5kg, a mid-drive motor like the one in the picture is typically 3-7kg depending on power. This is roughly 12-17kg/26-37lbs of extra weight plus the enclosure, electronics, and wiring.
jacquesm 8mo ago
170 cells, they're 45 grams each, the pack mounting hardware and box adds another two kilos or so, so say 10 Kg in all for the pack. Definitely not a lightweight :) But once it's going you hardly notice the weight other than when you have a pothole or bump. It also obviously isn't as nimble as a lighter bike but it is still very well manageable because the weight is relatively low. What's interesting is that the duct tape is still the same, it never even cracked or tear. I don't particularly care about the looks, it just needs to work.

0xWTF 8mo ago

What surface conditions do you ride this in? I spent this morning on my Specialized Levo (1) and ran down the entire battery over the course of about 2.5 hours, covering 36 km and 1400 meters of elevation, much of the downhill being at "mach chicken", with drops, doubles, locked up dirt surfing, etc. There is 0% probability I would take this long range e-bike to that terrain. Which is fine. But I'm pretty sure your frame wasn't designed to carry this 22 pound battery or anything like it, so are you exclusively riding this on buttery smooth Dutch roads? (1) a few years old now, but keeps up with my buddy riding the new-new version https://upway.co/products/specialized-turbo-levo-comp-carbon-rr0mh3 https://upway.co/products/specialized-turbo-levo-comp-carbon...

jacquesm 8mo ago
Bikepaths, mostly.
- 0xWTF 8mo ago
  To be clear, I really envy you the buttery smooth Dutch roads.
leoedin 8mo ago
> I'm pretty sure your frame wasn't designed to carry this 22 pound battery or anything like it Presumably bike frames are designed to carry larger riders? 22 pounds is well within the normal range of "adult". Apparently most bike frames are designed for riders up to 120kg - so the OP could easily be 40+kg below that.
- 0xWTF 8mo ago
  Bicycle frames are highly optimized to have the loads concentrated at specific points, namely the seat, bottom bracket, and wheels. The lugs are heavy, and the tubes are very thin almost everywhere else. This appears to be putting load at focal points along the thin wall regions. Every time you hit a bump, the battery hits the frame, like hitting the thin wall of a soda can with a hammer.

rsynnott 8mo ago

> I hope this article will inspire people to look at e-bikes as potentially commuter car replacement, to send Bosch and other e-bike technology manufacturers a message that if they won’t supply what people need that they are going to have to live with people hacking their stuff Did this ever happen?

jacquesm 8mo ago
Commercially, no, but I have been asked for a lot more details and pack building advice over the years and there are quite a few of these now, as far away as Japan and the United States, and of course not everybody will contact me so in that sense it was a success. The pictures tell the story, really, the most important thing is to handle the balancing wires correctly, that's a 'minor detail' that unfortunately even professional designers often get wrong with really bad outcomes as the result. Balancing wires and physical damage to the pack because of insufficient rigidity of the shell and a lack of shock absorbing material are the main causes of pack problems, water ingestion and bad materials / manufacturing defects are also a real problem. The balancing wires, shell rigidity, shock absorbers and seals are all on the manufacturer, how you treat the pack and monitor it is on the user. The worst are the pannier mounted ones, I personally think these should all be recalled and replaced. I've seen more than a few of those that had internal signs of fire damage and that must have come within a hair of thermal runaway.

neya 8mo ago

The setup looks lovely! How heavy is it in real life? Just curious. Is it, say, as heavy as a small moped or motorcycle or not that big of a deal? My only fear of trying this out is if the bike falls on its side, how difficult it might be to lift it back up. TIA

jacquesm 8mo ago
Much lighter than a moped, but way heavier than a normal bike, I estimate the total to weigh about 33 Kg, but there is a big set of bike bags on there as well.
- neya 8mo ago
  Thanks! I'm also currently exploring drivetrain options. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm working on implementing an e-CVT like in the Toyotas, they are actually super efficient and very comfy. I'm not really a fan of hub motors, so I went with some smaller out-runners. Your project has forced me to resume my gearbox project now :)
  - jacquesm 8mo ago
    There is - or was - a Finnish company doing precisely that. Google 'Revonte', amazing little product they made.
    - neya 8mo ago
      Thanks, will check it out. BTW, been your follower since early in the decade. Love your content!
      - jacquesm 8mo ago
        Thank you :)
- viranchee 8mo ago
  How much is the weight when the pack is fully charged? xD

brador 8mo ago

How’s your sperm? That’s quite a strong field. R squared and all that.