4 ms·

After nearly 30 years of tech life myself, I've come to the realization that the best UIs are not graphical. They can have graphical elements mostly for visuali

• deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
• Telaneo 8mo ago
  > Forcing users to click on graphical elements presents many challenges: what constitutes an "element"; what are its boundaries; when is it active, inactive, disabled, etc.; if it has icons, what do they mean; are interactive elements visually distinguishable from non-interactive elements; and so on. There are standards and common conventions for a lot of this in the Windows 9X/2000 design language, and even in basic HTML. These challenges could have been solved (for values of) by using them consistently, and I think we might have been there for a little while, at least within the Windows bubble. The fact that we threw all of those out the window with new and worse design, then did that again a few more times just to make sure all the users learned to never bother actually learning the UI, since it will just change on them anyway, doesn't entail that this is an unsolvable problem (well, it might be now, but I doubt it was back in 1995). > Like you, I do have a soft spot for the Windows 2000 GUI in particular, and consider it the pinnacle of Microsoft's designs, but it still feels outdated and inneficient by modern standards. The reason for this is because it follows the visual trends of the era, and it can't accomodate some of the UX improvements newer GUIs have (universal search, tiled/snappable windows, workspaces, etc.). I fail to see why any of these features couldn't be implemented within the design constraints of the Windows 9X/2000 design language. There are certainly technical constrains, but I can't see any design constrains. They were never implemented at the time, and those features didn't become relevant until we'd gone through several rounds of different designs, so we never had the opportunity to see how it would work out.
  • imiric 8mo ago
    > There are standards and common conventions for a lot of this in the Windows 9X/2000 design language, and even in basic HTML. These challenges could have been solved (for values of) by using them consistently [...] The thing is that GUIs naturally have to evolve to cater to their user base. The "office" metaphor was useful in the 1980s and 90s for making computing familiar to people who were used to "desktops", "folders", "files", etc. Some of these terms still exist today, but the vast majority of users can't relate to it, so it's meaningless to them. This is why GUIs will always have to change and adapt to trends, which will always cause friction for existing users. My point is that by minimizing the amount of graphical elements (note: not completely eliminate them), we minimize the amount of this friction. The difficult thing is, of course, maintaining the appropriate balance of all elements while optimizing for usability, which is ultimately very subjective. But consider that CLIs are effectively timeless. The friction comes from their lack of discoverability, arcane I/O, every program can have a different UI, etc. And yet this interface has persisted and has largely remained the same for decades. Most programs rarely change their CLI, so the user only needs to learn a few commands to be productive. So I think that the most usable UI is somewhere in the middle. It should avoid the constant churn of GUIs, and be more accessible than CLIs. This is possible to build for power users, but it can also be made approachable for less technical users. > I fail to see why any of these features couldn't be implemented within the design constraints of the Windows 9X/2000 design language. That's true. But then again, what exactly is the Windows 9x/2000 design language, and what makes it better than the modern Windows GUI? Is it the basic Start Menu? The task panel with blocks for each window instead of icons? The square instead of round windows? The lack of smooth transitions, transparency, and graphical effects? The overall brutalist theme? We can certainly add all the features I mentioned to Windows 9x/2000, and we had some of them even back then via 3rd party tools, but isn't that essentially what modern Windows has become? There are ways to revert some Windows 11 features today with alternative shells and such, so is that the ideal UI then? When I think of Win2k, I think of the overall simplicity. This is mostly due to nostalgia than for any practical reasons. I'm sure that I couldn't stand using its barebones UI today, as much as I would enjoy the simplicity for a brief moment.
• cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
  The issue with this type of design is that it completely tanks discoverability. Every visual UI element trimmed is another pit of confusion for less-technical computer users. Modern UIs aren't great with discoverability, either however and are not an example that should be followed.
  • zzo38computer 8mo ago
    > The issue with this type of design is that it completely tanks discoverability. There are still ways to help, such as having a menu bar, and having good documentation. (Documentation is more important, in my opinion; but both are helpful.)
  • imiric 8mo ago
    That's not necessarily the case. In fact, if implemented well, keyboard/command-driven UIs can be much easier to discover than GUIs. Consider the "Command Palette" and similar features that are part of many UIs (VS Code, Obsidian, Vim, Emacs, etc.). It allows the user to search all possible actions using natural language, and see or assign key bindings to them, so that they can get to their most commonly used actions faster. This search can be global for the entire program, or contextual for the current view. It is far easier to search for what you want to do, than to learn to what action every GUI element is associated with, or to navigate arbitrarily nested menu hierarchies. This does require the user to be familiar with the domain language somewhat in order to know what to search for, but this too can be simplified, actions can have different names, etc. It also makes the program more accessible for speech navigation, screen readers, and so on.
• zzo38computer 8mo ago
  > After nearly 30 years of tech life myself, I've come to the realization that the best UIs are not graphical. They can have graphical elements mostly for visualization purposes, but all of them should be as minimal and unobtrusive as possible. Any interactivity should be primarily keyboard-driven, and mouse input should be optional. I agree, that the interactivity should be primarily keyboard-driven. However, mouse input is useful for many things as well; if there are many things on the screen, the mouse can be a useful way to select one, even if the keyboard can also be used (if you already know what it is, you can type it in without having to know where on the screen it is; if you do not know what it is, you can see it on the screen and select it by mouse). > Forcing users to click on graphical elements presents many challenges: what constitutes an "element"; what are its boundaries; when is it active, inactive, disabled, etc.; if it has icons, what do they mean; are interactive elements visually distinguishable from non-interactive elements; and so on. At least older versions of Windows had a more consistent way of indicating some of these things, although sometimes they did not work very well, often they worked OK. (The conventions for doing so might have been improved, although at least they had some that, at least partially, worked.) > A good example of bad UI that drives me mad today on Windows 11 is something as simple as resizing windows. ... it's not clear where the "grab" area for resizing a window exists anymore I had just used ALT+SPACE to do stuff such as resize, move, etc. I have not used Windows 11 so I don't know if it works on Windows 11, but I would hope that it does if Microsoft wants to avoid confusing people. (On other older versions of Windows, even if they moved everything I was able to use it because most of the keyboard commands still work the same as older versions of Windows, so that is helpful (for example, you can still push ALT+TAB to switch between full-screen programs, ALT+F4 to close a full-screen program, etc; I don't know whether or not there is any other way to do such things like that). However, many of the changes will cause confusion despite this, or will cause other problems, that they removed stuff that is useful in favor of less useful or more worthless stuff.)
• hnthrowaway0315 7mo ago
  This might work well for power users, but common users may frustrate out. I do think the classic UI + keyboard driven menu clicks (e.g. ALT+some key combination) is the best case, where power uses can mostly use key stroke combinations to navigate the menu, while common users can click with a mouse. Whatever the UI it is, being consistent is the most important. But sadly as you said, UI designers need to eat, too.
• just6979 7mo ago
  Pointers are still very useful for many paradigms. Think about something like Blender or a game level editor: there can be _a lot_ of controls visible at once, trying to navigate them all with the keyboard is just unfeasible. And doing a fully context sensitive setup to limit visible controls, like the MS Office Ribbon, is also infeasible because the changes would be happening almost continually as different objects are selected and modes are chosen. Your bad UI example of resizing windows is way less about the round corners or lack of obvious grab area (handle). It's more that the handle is way too small. It's a couple pixels (maybe just one?) wide/tall on screens that are thousands of pixels wide! It's just too easy to overshoot. I'd say it comes from the obsession with minimalism and flat design such that there is almost no visible seperate border to act as a target. Combined with trying to remove ambiguity as to which window the click should go to (if you click two pixels "outside" a window, should the click go to the window beneath or be interpreted as trying to grab the border?), the grab handles are tiny, almost matching the actual (lack of) pixels of the border, instead of being a usable target to click on. To me it points to a lack of usability testing, or at least lack of generalized usability testing, ie: they tested their own workflows, which seem to be just always leaving windows as the OS creates them initially, or maximizing everything, not much resizing at all. Similarly, generally testing a [mostly] keyboard interface is tough to do thoroughly without providing a thorough cheat sheet. You know the commands because you made them, easy to test how you work, but others need to learn them first.