5 ms·

I accidentally hit the wrong button a few weeks ago and upgraded to Tahoe. I didn't think it was that big a deal at the time, I'd just been putting it off. But

I accidentally hit the wrong button a few weeks ago and upgraded to Tahoe. I didn't think it was that big a deal at the time, I'd just been putting it off. But having used it for a few weeks now I can confirm it is a strict downgrade over Sequoia for me. I use none of the new features it has introduced, and the changes to existing features are just worse. Some UI animations are slow and jittery - and this is on an M4 Pro. The Finder has gone from fine to janky once again, especially with horizontal scroll. The window corners and mouse interactions are indeed annoying (I'd assumed the many complaints were at least slight hyperbole). Left-aligned window titles are unbalanced and ugly. I've had weird (visual) app duplication issues with the Application smart-folder in the Dock. Cross-device copy-paste SEEMS to be more flaky than usual. And most petty of all I really don't like the new icons - especially the Trash icon for some reason.

Hamuko 7mo ago
I have Tahoe on my work laptop and Sequoia on my personal desktop, and the thing that keeps me the most rooted on Sequoia is the padding. Everything on Tahoe is padded to hell and back. And the new tab design sucks so much. iTerm2 tabs look fucking terrible in it.
- dgemm 7mo ago
  Same - 13" macbook screen becomes less functional when you fill it with padding.
- mxs_ 7mo ago
  they have really tried hard to make the entire OS less usable. I'm not an "iToddler", I paid for a Unix workstation and will not have lower information density forced onto me.
- deadbabe 7mo ago
  Why are you not using Ghostty instead of iTerm2?
  - chrisandchris 7mo ago
    Not OP, but iTerm is the one I knew and it does it's job. No need to move away from something that works.
  - yearolinuxdsktp 7mo ago
    No ability to search the scroll back buffer. Stuck on the latest 1.2 release, there shall be no more, even though important bug fixes like memory leaks when using Claude are not backported. That’s a wild “go F yourself” decision. Ghostty crashed the other day for me, I have zero expectations that crash will be fixed for me until the 1.3 release. And when that release happens, the cycle of ridiculousness will restart. All the windows are gone when it crashes. I’m not ready to run Ghostty nightlies, last thing I need is the increased chance of crashing or bugs. About to switch to native Terminal.app since it now supports truecolor. Or back to iTerm2.
    - Tom1380 7mo ago
      Give Kitty a try. It's my go to on both Mac and Linux, I really enjoy it
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
  - wpm 7mo ago
    Why should an iTerm user switch to ghostty? What do they gain by moving away from a highly mature, feature rich, native offering?
    - deadbabe 7mo ago
      iTerm is slow as fuck. cat large files in iTerm vs Ghostty and you will see the difference. Ghostty always stays responsive, and has much lower memory usage. The typing latency on Ghostty is so low it really enriches the terminal experience. People still using stuff like iTerm2 are likely just either not using their terminal very often or are ignorant to the wider terminal emulator market.
gib444 7mo ago
> Some UI animations are slow and jittery - and this is on an M4 Pro On an M4 Pro! Pure planned obsecelence. Noticed it regularly with major MacOS releases. Nothing will convince me otherwise.
- burgerone 7mo ago
  [flagged]
- teaearlgraycold 7mo ago
  Yeah they should have bought the M5 Pro /s
- kdheiwns 7mo ago
  I got an M5 and it unfortunately had Tahoe preinstalled. Out of the box, Quicklook is choppy. My non-Tahoe M1 is buttery smooth. I don't know how Apple managed to ruin a feature that's been running smoothly for decades.
  - Barbing 7mo ago
    Yikes. That’s terrible (it’s a great feature[+]). [+]just discovered this, thanks Sindre who I always run into searching: https://github.com/sindresorhus/quick-look-plugins https://github.com/sindresorhus/quick-look-plugins (but I’m on Sequoia so they work perfectly!)
- Gigachad 7mo ago
  Anecdotally, I’ve had Tahoe installed for ages now and it runs perfectly smooth on my M1 Pro with an external 4k display as well.
  - tonyedgecombe 7mo ago
    Same for me on a standard M1. The UI is degraded though.
  - stevekemp 7mo ago
    I run a terminal, emacs, and firefox. That's about all I need to work/develop, and I've not noticed anything negative since the upgrade. I guess I'm not a power-user though.
TuxSH 7mo ago
Also Apple Music is much worse (harder to bring miniplayer, seek bar harder to use) and list of misfeatures goes on and on and on
- ed_mercer 7mo ago
  Oh man, that's concerning since it was already terrible on Sonoma. I've been using Museeks for years now.
- wombatpm 7mo ago
  You have to give Apple credit where credit is due. They have managed to make first iTunes and now Music worse with every release. Which is truly amazing.
- dgxyz 7mo ago
  Aye it’s fucking terrible. Seek bar is impossible.
- laserlight 7mo ago
  I've lowered my expectations over the years, but there's this single stupidity that drives me crazy: When you search for a keyword and play a song from the results, playback continues with the rest of the search results. Why the hell would I want to play all of the songs with similar names? iOS Music, on the other hand, does the expected and creates a station from the first played search result.
- cmg 7mo ago
  The fact that in the miniplayer you can't display both the album art and the track information at the same time unless the cursor is hovering over the window absolutely boggles my mind. If I'm listening to a station, I want to glance over and see what I'm listening to. And I like the album art showing. This worked until Tahoe. View menu > Hide Large Artwork will show the track info, but you of course lose the album art. Of course it's not a major issue, it doesn't make the system unusable, but it was a nice little experience thing.
  - hedora 7mo ago
apparent 7mo ago
Good to know. My dad recently asked and I didn't know the pros/cons. I haven't upgraded but that's because I don't have a need to. He has a new Mac mini, and I thought it might make sense for him. But it sounds like it's not an upgrade, and is possibly a downgrade, especially if it will make things harder to find.
- DavidPiper 7mo ago
  I've also had a proper Thunderbolt display freak out where the entire desktop just suddenly decides to ultra-saturate/ultra-contrast. Happened twice, across restarts. After the second restart it stopped, but I can't explain it and nothing like it has happened before/since/with other machines I connect to the screen with the same cable. Not sure about "harder to find" but the sheer number of unexplainable glitches and slowness means I wouldn't otherwise have upgraded had I known. Waiting for a higher 26.X release might be worthwhile.
charles_f 7mo ago
I did the same mistake a few weeks ago ; my company enforces security updates and I picked the Tahoe update instead of the security one. I told myself, what the hell, might as well give it a try! I wiped my computer and reinstalled Sequoia last week.
- a012 7mo ago
  You’re lucky that you had a choice. The security policy in my company forces our laptop to be up to date no matter what. You can resist to update for some time but then they’ll force update through management system and sometime it happens in the middle of out meeting
userbinator 7mo ago
Some UI animations are slow and jittery - and this is on an M4 Pro. It's clear that no one at Apple (or any other big tech company these days) has ever watched old demoscene productions, then contemplated their performance against the available computing power of their current products and the experience thereof, and thought "something is very wrong".
psychoslave 7mo ago
I don't know, I started using a Mac only 3 years ago when joining my current job. The UX always felt so wrong on every matter to me. I don't get where the reputation came from, maybe from an era that was already only mere memory when I started to use it. I would pick a default bare gnome 3 agaisnt any Mac os version UX without any hesitation. With a lot of tools from third parties, it puts back the level to supportable, but that's the highest satisfaction level it ever procured to me. Rectangle and some alternative window switcher plus brew are the minimum to survive without going crazy after 2 minutes of exposition. Having finder always present in window switcher and no way to close/hide it? What a monstrosity! I'm still looking for a working solution to select and paste with middle click. Glad I don't have to use it out of work.
- lapcat 7mo ago
  > I don't get where the reputation came from, maybe from an era that was already only mere memory when I started to use it. Peak Mac design was 20 years ago, before iPhone. That was where the reputation came from. Since iPhone became Apple's darling, and especially since Steve Jobs died, the Mac UI has been systematically wrecked, year by year. iPhone design has also been systematically wrecked since Jobs died. Tim Cook clearly had no idea what he was doing when he put hardware designer Jony Ive in charge of software with iOS 7, something that Jobs never did with Ive.
- thunky 7mo ago
  > I would pick a default bare gnome 3 agaisnt any Mac os version UX without any hesitation. Yeah it's a head scratcher for me too. So many devs only want to work on a Mac yet they build software that runs on NOT Mac. Then they have to jump through hoops like architecture mismatch and docker having to run a Linux vm anyway.
  - rdtsc 7mo ago
    I prefer Linux as well just to get the same tools and architecture like you said. But at work everything corporate is configured for mac by default. So running Linux is a battle to having to keep up with VPN and other stuff they have.
Itoldmyselfso 7mo ago
I also accidentally upgraded due dark pattern of auto-selecting Sequoia instead of update for Sonoma. Now my external monitor won't wake up when waking my macbook from sleep (in clamshell mode, lid always closed). Nothing fixes it, beyond infuriating.

Hamuko 7mo ago

I have Tahoe on my work laptop and Sequoia on my personal desktop, and the thing that keeps me the most rooted on Sequoia is the padding. Everything on Tahoe is padded to hell and back. And the new tab design sucks so much. iTerm2 tabs look fucking terrible in it.

dgemm 7mo ago
Same - 13" macbook screen becomes less functional when you fill it with padding.
mxs_ 7mo ago
they have really tried hard to make the entire OS less usable. I'm not an "iToddler", I paid for a Unix workstation and will not have lower information density forced onto me.
deadbabe 7mo ago
Why are you not using Ghostty instead of iTerm2?
- chrisandchris 7mo ago
  Not OP, but iTerm is the one I knew and it does it's job. No need to move away from something that works.
- yearolinuxdsktp 7mo ago
  No ability to search the scroll back buffer. Stuck on the latest 1.2 release, there shall be no more, even though important bug fixes like memory leaks when using Claude are not backported. That’s a wild “go F yourself” decision. Ghostty crashed the other day for me, I have zero expectations that crash will be fixed for me until the 1.3 release. And when that release happens, the cycle of ridiculousness will restart. All the windows are gone when it crashes. I’m not ready to run Ghostty nightlies, last thing I need is the increased chance of crashing or bugs. About to switch to native Terminal.app since it now supports truecolor. Or back to iTerm2.
  - Tom1380 7mo ago
    Give Kitty a try. It's my go to on both Mac and Linux, I really enjoy it
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
- wpm 7mo ago
  Why should an iTerm user switch to ghostty? What do they gain by moving away from a highly mature, feature rich, native offering?
  - deadbabe 7mo ago
    iTerm is slow as fuck. cat large files in iTerm vs Ghostty and you will see the difference. Ghostty always stays responsive, and has much lower memory usage. The typing latency on Ghostty is so low it really enriches the terminal experience. People still using stuff like iTerm2 are likely just either not using their terminal very often or are ignorant to the wider terminal emulator market.

gib444 7mo ago

> Some UI animations are slow and jittery - and this is on an M4 Pro On an M4 Pro! Pure planned obsecelence. Noticed it regularly with major MacOS releases. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

burgerone 7mo ago
[flagged]
teaearlgraycold 7mo ago
Yeah they should have bought the M5 Pro /s
kdheiwns 7mo ago
I got an M5 and it unfortunately had Tahoe preinstalled. Out of the box, Quicklook is choppy. My non-Tahoe M1 is buttery smooth. I don't know how Apple managed to ruin a feature that's been running smoothly for decades.
- Barbing 7mo ago
  Yikes. That’s terrible (it’s a great feature[+]). [+]just discovered this, thanks Sindre who I always run into searching: https://github.com/sindresorhus/quick-look-plugins https://github.com/sindresorhus/quick-look-plugins (but I’m on Sequoia so they work perfectly!)
Gigachad 7mo ago
Anecdotally, I’ve had Tahoe installed for ages now and it runs perfectly smooth on my M1 Pro with an external 4k display as well.
- tonyedgecombe 7mo ago
  Same for me on a standard M1. The UI is degraded though.
- stevekemp 7mo ago
  I run a terminal, emacs, and firefox. That's about all I need to work/develop, and I've not noticed anything negative since the upgrade. I guess I'm not a power-user though.

TuxSH 7mo ago

Also Apple Music is much worse (harder to bring miniplayer, seek bar harder to use) and list of misfeatures goes on and on and on

ed_mercer 7mo ago
Oh man, that's concerning since it was already terrible on Sonoma. I've been using Museeks for years now.
wombatpm 7mo ago
You have to give Apple credit where credit is due. They have managed to make first iTunes and now Music worse with every release. Which is truly amazing.
dgxyz 7mo ago
Aye it’s fucking terrible. Seek bar is impossible.
laserlight 7mo ago
I've lowered my expectations over the years, but there's this single stupidity that drives me crazy: When you search for a keyword and play a song from the results, playback continues with the rest of the search results. Why the hell would I want to play all of the songs with similar names? iOS Music, on the other hand, does the expected and creates a station from the first played search result.
cmg 7mo ago
The fact that in the miniplayer you can't display both the album art and the track information at the same time unless the cursor is hovering over the window absolutely boggles my mind. If I'm listening to a station, I want to glance over and see what I'm listening to. And I like the album art showing. This worked until Tahoe. View menu > Hide Large Artwork will show the track info, but you of course lose the album art. Of course it's not a major issue, it doesn't make the system unusable, but it was a nice little experience thing.
- hedora 7mo ago

apparent 7mo ago

Good to know. My dad recently asked and I didn't know the pros/cons. I haven't upgraded but that's because I don't have a need to. He has a new Mac mini, and I thought it might make sense for him. But it sounds like it's not an upgrade, and is possibly a downgrade, especially if it will make things harder to find.

DavidPiper 7mo ago
I've also had a proper Thunderbolt display freak out where the entire desktop just suddenly decides to ultra-saturate/ultra-contrast. Happened twice, across restarts. After the second restart it stopped, but I can't explain it and nothing like it has happened before/since/with other machines I connect to the screen with the same cable. Not sure about "harder to find" but the sheer number of unexplainable glitches and slowness means I wouldn't otherwise have upgraded had I known. Waiting for a higher 26.X release might be worthwhile.

charles_f 7mo ago

I did the same mistake a few weeks ago ; my company enforces security updates and I picked the Tahoe update instead of the security one. I told myself, what the hell, might as well give it a try! I wiped my computer and reinstalled Sequoia last week.

a012 7mo ago
You’re lucky that you had a choice. The security policy in my company forces our laptop to be up to date no matter what. You can resist to update for some time but then they’ll force update through management system and sometime it happens in the middle of out meeting

userbinator 7mo ago

Some UI animations are slow and jittery - and this is on an M4 Pro. It's clear that no one at Apple (or any other big tech company these days) has ever watched old demoscene productions, then contemplated their performance against the available computing power of their current products and the experience thereof, and thought "something is very wrong".

psychoslave 7mo ago

I don't know, I started using a Mac only 3 years ago when joining my current job. The UX always felt so wrong on every matter to me. I don't get where the reputation came from, maybe from an era that was already only mere memory when I started to use it. I would pick a default bare gnome 3 agaisnt any Mac os version UX without any hesitation. With a lot of tools from third parties, it puts back the level to supportable, but that's the highest satisfaction level it ever procured to me. Rectangle and some alternative window switcher plus brew are the minimum to survive without going crazy after 2 minutes of exposition. Having finder always present in window switcher and no way to close/hide it? What a monstrosity! I'm still looking for a working solution to select and paste with middle click. Glad I don't have to use it out of work.

lapcat 7mo ago
> I don't get where the reputation came from, maybe from an era that was already only mere memory when I started to use it. Peak Mac design was 20 years ago, before iPhone. That was where the reputation came from. Since iPhone became Apple's darling, and especially since Steve Jobs died, the Mac UI has been systematically wrecked, year by year. iPhone design has also been systematically wrecked since Jobs died. Tim Cook clearly had no idea what he was doing when he put hardware designer Jony Ive in charge of software with iOS 7, something that Jobs never did with Ive.
thunky 7mo ago
> I would pick a default bare gnome 3 agaisnt any Mac os version UX without any hesitation. Yeah it's a head scratcher for me too. So many devs only want to work on a Mac yet they build software that runs on NOT Mac. Then they have to jump through hoops like architecture mismatch and docker having to run a Linux vm anyway.
- rdtsc 7mo ago
  I prefer Linux as well just to get the same tools and architecture like you said. But at work everything corporate is configured for mac by default. So running Linux is a battle to having to keep up with VPN and other stuff they have.

Itoldmyselfso 7mo ago

I also accidentally upgraded due dark pattern of auto-selecting Sequoia instead of update for Sonoma. Now my external monitor won't wake up when waking my macbook from sleep (in clamshell mode, lid always closed). Nothing fixes it, beyond infuriating.