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> My concern with TDD is that writing tests necessarily implies designing an API upon which those tests operate It really forces you to do outside-in testing;

> My concern with TDD is that writing tests necessarily implies designing an API upon which those tests operate It really forces you to do outside-in testing; I usually describe the kind of API I want when chatting with the agents. For example, the CLI options, the routes that might be useful for an API, etc. > I look at the code and find a rats nest / ball of mud that will cost 10x more tokens to enhance should I ever need to add a feature. Agreed, I don't know if there are good forcing functions to avoid complexity. The providers have a huge incentive to have you waste your tokens (for example when it re-outputs the complete file when you ask for a tiny change).

bonesss 7mo ago
“Test Driven Design” is another way to frame it.
0x457 7mo ago
In "proper" TDD you you supposed go: - write a test for method that does not exist, it just calls the method and nothing else - write method that does nothing - add/extend test that uses that method <-- this very loop starts - modify method until tests passes - go back to loop start until you're done I always hated it. When I work with LLM i first massage interface that tests, then tests, then implementation until all these tests pass. > for example when it re-outputs the complete file when you ask for a tiny change). well with sonnet 3.5 and 4.5 (can't say about 4.6) it often will get stuck in a loop trying to update just the required parts and iether waste tons of tokens doing these updates or waste tons of tokens to a point where restring file from git is required. Tokens get wasted regardless.
- skydhash 7mo ago
  I like tests, but I don't bother with TDD because it's so ceremonial. I design the API, or at least sketch it out (using a whiteboard or drafting some notes, and doing research). Then I iterate and refine. I only bother with tests once I can commit or when it's no longer viable to tests manually (edit-compile-run cycle). And a lot of time I follow the table pattern. https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/simplicity/9798888651704/f_0049.xhtml https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/simplicity/979888865170...

bonesss 7mo ago

“Test Driven Design” is another way to frame it.

0x457 7mo ago

In "proper" TDD you you supposed go: - write a test for method that does not exist, it just calls the method and nothing else - write method that does nothing - add/extend test that uses that method <-- this very loop starts - modify method until tests passes - go back to loop start until you're done I always hated it. When I work with LLM i first massage interface that tests, then tests, then implementation until all these tests pass. > for example when it re-outputs the complete file when you ask for a tiny change). well with sonnet 3.5 and 4.5 (can't say about 4.6) it often will get stuck in a loop trying to update just the required parts and iether waste tons of tokens doing these updates or waste tons of tokens to a point where restring file from git is required. Tokens get wasted regardless.

skydhash 7mo ago
I like tests, but I don't bother with TDD because it's so ceremonial. I design the API, or at least sketch it out (using a whiteboard or drafting some notes, and doing research). Then I iterate and refine. I only bother with tests once I can commit or when it's no longer viable to tests manually (edit-compile-run cycle). And a lot of time I follow the table pattern. https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/simplicity/9798888651704/f_0049.xhtml https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/simplicity/979888865170...