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Show me a respected design authority who advocates grids then. "STUPID STUPID STUPID" is not an argument. The fact is, grids tie content to presentation, and

Show me a respected design authority who advocates grids then. "STUPID STUPID STUPID" is not an argument. The fact is, grids tie content to presentation, and are entirely unnecessary. The fact that you think grids is the reason some websites look right and others look wrong is astoundingly ignorant.

tptacek 14y ago
Here you go: http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestaltung/dp/3721201450 http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestal...
- egonschiele 14y ago
  > Purchasing my copy of grid Systems in Graphic Design, by Josef Muller-Brockmann, was the best money I've ever spent on a design text. I was a relatively seasoned designer with 6 years of pro-experience when I was fortunate enough to find a copy of this masterpiece. I was largely self-taught however, and while I knew from working in various layout programs about grids, I had no idea how powerfully they could be utilized. Within a weekend of reading and absorbing this book, my designs had improved substantially. Sounds about right!
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Raster Systeme of course being one of the more famous graphic design books of the 20th century.
- papsosouid 14y ago
  The fact that I recognize your name solely because you seem to constantly deliberately misrepresent what people say so you can respond with nonsense is rather depressing. That is graphic design, not web design. See how I pointed out that tightly coupling content and presentation is the problem with using grids for web design? Notice how that book never even touches on the subject? Web design is not just graphic design, it is a different medium, with different needs.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    You'd be a more compelling troll if you chose a different one of my comments to attach this to, since the comment you're replying to is literally just a link to a book.
pixeloution 14y ago
Every university visual communications program (graphic design) teaches grids ... for a reason. * http://departments.risd.edu/registrar/web/1112cat.pdf (a number of classes focus on grid systems. this is one of the most respected design programs in the country) * http://graphicdesigntheory.net/Images/DT/Armstrong_GDTsyllabus.pdf * http://pacificgraphicdesign.wordpress.com/courses/graphic-design-ii-2/graphic-design-ii-syllabus/
- papsosouid 14y ago
  See my response above. We are talking about web design, not graphic design.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    Why is web design so different here? We are still talking about content that is consumed with your eyes.
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      That is precisely how it is different. We're not talking about content that is just consumed with our eyes. It is consumed by computer programs also. And we need to convey information in a way that those programs can understand. Hiding semantic meaning in classes is bad, as is pushing presentation information into markup. A screen reader has no way to understand that a div with a class of "errormsg" is anything at all. It is just a generic meaningless item. A screen reader can understand that a paragraph tag with a role of "alert" has a specific defined meaning, this is text content indicating an error or warning message. Just as a div with a class of "navbar-fixed-top" is completely meaningless, and a nav tag conveys the specific meaning of "this is a container holding navigation items".
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        I'm not sure how using a grid system or something like bootstrap is "pushing presentation into markup". Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done? Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant. Whenever I have tried screen readers they will say "ok, there's 3 divs with content here. Let's read them out one at a time or just read the headings and wait for the user to select one". How they are arranged in a grid will be irrelevant to the software. Does bootstrap present some particular problem for screen readers? You are yet to explain what you think best practices should be here.
chc 14y ago
Jeffrey Zeldman? Andy Clarke? Are they not respected enough?

tptacek 14y ago

Here you go: http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestaltung/dp/3721201450 http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestal...

egonschiele 14y ago
> Purchasing my copy of grid Systems in Graphic Design, by Josef Muller-Brockmann, was the best money I've ever spent on a design text. I was a relatively seasoned designer with 6 years of pro-experience when I was fortunate enough to find a copy of this masterpiece. I was largely self-taught however, and while I knew from working in various layout programs about grids, I had no idea how powerfully they could be utilized. Within a weekend of reading and absorbing this book, my designs had improved substantially. Sounds about right!
- tptacek 14y ago
  Raster Systeme of course being one of the more famous graphic design books of the 20th century.
papsosouid 14y ago
The fact that I recognize your name solely because you seem to constantly deliberately misrepresent what people say so you can respond with nonsense is rather depressing. That is graphic design, not web design. See how I pointed out that tightly coupling content and presentation is the problem with using grids for web design? Notice how that book never even touches on the subject? Web design is not just graphic design, it is a different medium, with different needs.
- tptacek 14y ago
  You'd be a more compelling troll if you chose a different one of my comments to attach this to, since the comment you're replying to is literally just a link to a book.

pixeloution 14y ago

Every university visual communications program (graphic design) teaches grids ... for a reason. * http://departments.risd.edu/registrar/web/1112cat.pdf (a number of classes focus on grid systems. this is one of the most respected design programs in the country) * http://graphicdesigntheory.net/Images/DT/Armstrong_GDTsyllabus.pdf * http://pacificgraphicdesign.wordpress.com/courses/graphic-design-ii-2/graphic-design-ii-syllabus/

papsosouid 14y ago
See my response above. We are talking about web design, not graphic design.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Why is web design so different here? We are still talking about content that is consumed with your eyes.
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    That is precisely how it is different. We're not talking about content that is just consumed with our eyes. It is consumed by computer programs also. And we need to convey information in a way that those programs can understand. Hiding semantic meaning in classes is bad, as is pushing presentation information into markup. A screen reader has no way to understand that a div with a class of "errormsg" is anything at all. It is just a generic meaningless item. A screen reader can understand that a paragraph tag with a role of "alert" has a specific defined meaning, this is text content indicating an error or warning message. Just as a div with a class of "navbar-fixed-top" is completely meaningless, and a nav tag conveys the specific meaning of "this is a container holding navigation items".
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      I'm not sure how using a grid system or something like bootstrap is "pushing presentation into markup". Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done? Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant. Whenever I have tried screen readers they will say "ok, there's 3 divs with content here. Let's read them out one at a time or just read the headings and wait for the user to select one". How they are arranged in a grid will be irrelevant to the software. Does bootstrap present some particular problem for screen readers? You are yet to explain what you think best practices should be here.

chc 14y ago

Jeffrey Zeldman? Andy Clarke? Are they not respected enough?