4 ms·

I don't think the Ukranian people are being supressed by their own gov

by sva_ 8mo ago

no-name-here 8mo ago
Is the argument that the U.S. should only militarily intervene when conflicts are internal within another country, as opposed to when it’s one country invading another? As that’s the opposite of the established international laws around prohibiting one state from attacking another vs the principle of non-intervention.
CapricornNoble 8mo ago
1. The Russian position in 2014 was that the Ukrainian people in Donbas were being oppressed by the new Ukrainian central government. 2. There's a lot of domestic political/information suppression in Ukraine but I consider this somewhat normal for a nation in a pretty existential conflict. 3. The Ukrainian military is 70-80% conscripts, increasingly of the "forcibly mobilized" variety (look up "TCC busification" for examples), with almost all military-age males banned from leaving the country. Dudes are getting beaten up, stuffed into vans, and sent to trenches to eat Russian artillery and FABs (air-to-ground bombs)....against their will. I think that definitely counts as suppression.
- cylemons 8mo ago
  What is Ukraine supposed to do then?
  - klibertp 8mo ago
    Lose. Evacuate the government. Then mount a guerrilla, and wait for an opportunity. It'll come, most likely sooner rather than later. Why is that unthinkable? I can understand people in the US being unable to process such a scenario, but here in Europe, there's not a single nation that wasn't off the map for some time. I know why Ukrainians don't want that, but the demographic costs of tens to hundreds of thousands of "military age men" dying are so huge that any plausible alternative should be considered, even if it's very unpleasant.
    - ceejayoz 8mo ago
      > Why is that unthinkable? Because it’s unthinkably stupid. > I know why Ukrainians don't want that, but the demographic costs of tens to hundreds of thousands of "military age men" dying are so huge that any plausible alternative should be considered, even if it's very unpleasant. And you imagine they won’t die in your guerrilla war? Or the next invasion after an emboldened Russia regroups?
    - Sabinus 8mo ago
      You're suggesting a decades long guerrilla movement under occupation will be better for the Ukrainian people than conscription during an existential defensive war?
      - klibertp 8mo ago
        In terms of the number of lives lost? Yes. Guerrilla resistance is a way of trading important advantages (like control of the territory or political legitimacy) for time and human lives. Guerrillas in a favorable environment tend to suffer much lower casualties per fighter per unit of time than trench warfare along a frontline. It's a desperate measure, but so is snatching people from the street to bus them off to trenches. Personally, I think people can live through almost any hell (and can make a comeback later) - unless they die, in which case they can't do anything anymore. Decades of hard times, in this view, are preferable to tens of thousands of excess deaths per year over a decade. I understand why people are reluctant to consider this - I'm just trying to show that there are alternatives to the current situation; not strictly better, but at least presenting different trade-offs. In a situation of "existential defensive war," we should discuss all plausible options, even the most controversial ones.
        cylemons 8mo ago
        Not necessarily, if Ukraine surrenders then Russia will disarm them. Then when they revolt Russia will be able to bomb them with impunity because the resistance will not have the air defenses and manufacturing that the Ukrainian military now has. Not to mention that Russia will almost certainly genocide or atleast severely oppress the Ukrainians if they win
lurk2 8mo ago
They haven’t had an election since the war started and routinely force unwilling conscripts into vans.
- ceejayoz 8mo ago
  > They haven’t had an election since the war started Because that’s what their constitution says. https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/ukraines-presidential-elections-amid-war-political-legal-and-security-challenges https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/ukraines-presidential... > routinely force unwilling conscripts into vans Can you clarify what you understand conscription to be?
  - nullocator 8mo ago
    What does the Iranian say? If we're all about respecting documents, we should make sure we assess them all equally. The U.S. constitution has a lot to say about many of the things that are happening right now, but those are being happily ignored. We can't even respect our own constitution, the idea that we'd respect others is laughable.
    - ceejayoz 8mo ago
      Trump’s disregard for both constitutions is not a good reason for Zelensky to ignore his own.
  - lurk2 8mo ago
    > Because that’s what their constitution says. “They have People’s Republic right there in the name, what are you people not getting about this?” > Can you clarify what you understand conscription to be? A violation of human dignity.
    - ceejayoz 8mo ago
      > A violation of human dignity. A dodge, but we can work with that. A yes or no question, now: Would the citizens of a sovereign nation being forced to violate their Constitution by Putin and Trump be a “violation of human dignity” too?
von_lohengramm 8mo ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 8mo ago
  > armed men wearing balaclavas drive up in vans and abduct people off the street to draft them into the military Every country with conscription will do this if you refuse to show up. > Both the west and the east have been pressuring them to hold elections to no avail. Their own constitution and laws forbids it during martial law. “Both Putin and Trump want Zelensky to violate the Ukrainian Constitution” is not the grand slam take you imagine it to be.
  - von_lohengramm 8mo ago
    > Every country with conscription will do this if you refuse to show up. Was that MP a draft dodger? The issue isn't them picking draft dodgers, it's them picking up anybody that looks like they might be a draft dodger and the tactics they employ to do it.

I don't think the Ukranian people are being supressed by their own gov

by sva_ 8mo ago

I don't think the Ukranian people are being supressed by their own gov

Is the argument that the U.S. should only militarily intervene when conflicts are internal within another country, as opposed to when it’s one country invading another? As that’s the opposite of the established international laws around prohibiting one state from attacking another vs the principle of non-intervention.

CapricornNoble 8mo ago

1. The Russian position in 2014 was that the Ukrainian people in Donbas were being oppressed by the new Ukrainian central government. 2. There's a lot of domestic political/information suppression in Ukraine but I consider this somewhat normal for a nation in a pretty existential conflict. 3. The Ukrainian military is 70-80% conscripts, increasingly of the "forcibly mobilized" variety (look up "TCC busification" for examples), with almost all military-age males banned from leaving the country. Dudes are getting beaten up, stuffed into vans, and sent to trenches to eat Russian artillery and FABs (air-to-ground bombs)....against their will. I think that definitely counts as suppression.

cylemons 8mo ago
What is Ukraine supposed to do then?
- klibertp 8mo ago
  Lose. Evacuate the government. Then mount a guerrilla, and wait for an opportunity. It'll come, most likely sooner rather than later. Why is that unthinkable? I can understand people in the US being unable to process such a scenario, but here in Europe, there's not a single nation that wasn't off the map for some time. I know why Ukrainians don't want that, but the demographic costs of tens to hundreds of thousands of "military age men" dying are so huge that any plausible alternative should be considered, even if it's very unpleasant.
  - ceejayoz 8mo ago
    > Why is that unthinkable? Because it’s unthinkably stupid. > I know why Ukrainians don't want that, but the demographic costs of tens to hundreds of thousands of "military age men" dying are so huge that any plausible alternative should be considered, even if it's very unpleasant. And you imagine they won’t die in your guerrilla war? Or the next invasion after an emboldened Russia regroups?
  - Sabinus 8mo ago
    You're suggesting a decades long guerrilla movement under occupation will be better for the Ukrainian people than conscription during an existential defensive war?
    - klibertp 8mo ago
      In terms of the number of lives lost? Yes. Guerrilla resistance is a way of trading important advantages (like control of the territory or political legitimacy) for time and human lives. Guerrillas in a favorable environment tend to suffer much lower casualties per fighter per unit of time than trench warfare along a frontline. It's a desperate measure, but so is snatching people from the street to bus them off to trenches. Personally, I think people can live through almost any hell (and can make a comeback later) - unless they die, in which case they can't do anything anymore. Decades of hard times, in this view, are preferable to tens of thousands of excess deaths per year over a decade. I understand why people are reluctant to consider this - I'm just trying to show that there are alternatives to the current situation; not strictly better, but at least presenting different trade-offs. In a situation of "existential defensive war," we should discuss all plausible options, even the most controversial ones.
      - cylemons 8mo ago
        Not necessarily, if Ukraine surrenders then Russia will disarm them. Then when they revolt Russia will be able to bomb them with impunity because the resistance will not have the air defenses and manufacturing that the Ukrainian military now has. Not to mention that Russia will almost certainly genocide or atleast severely oppress the Ukrainians if they win

lurk2 8mo ago

They haven’t had an election since the war started and routinely force unwilling conscripts into vans.

ceejayoz 8mo ago
> They haven’t had an election since the war started Because that’s what their constitution says. https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/ukraines-presidential-elections-amid-war-political-legal-and-security-challenges https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/ukraines-presidential... > routinely force unwilling conscripts into vans Can you clarify what you understand conscription to be?
- nullocator 8mo ago
  What does the Iranian say? If we're all about respecting documents, we should make sure we assess them all equally. The U.S. constitution has a lot to say about many of the things that are happening right now, but those are being happily ignored. We can't even respect our own constitution, the idea that we'd respect others is laughable.
  - ceejayoz 8mo ago
    Trump’s disregard for both constitutions is not a good reason for Zelensky to ignore his own.
- lurk2 8mo ago
  > Because that’s what their constitution says. “They have People’s Republic right there in the name, what are you people not getting about this?” > Can you clarify what you understand conscription to be? A violation of human dignity.
  - ceejayoz 8mo ago
    > A violation of human dignity. A dodge, but we can work with that. A yes or no question, now: Would the citizens of a sovereign nation being forced to violate their Constitution by Putin and Trump be a “violation of human dignity” too?

von_lohengramm 8mo ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 8mo ago
> armed men wearing balaclavas drive up in vans and abduct people off the street to draft them into the military Every country with conscription will do this if you refuse to show up. > Both the west and the east have been pressuring them to hold elections to no avail. Their own constitution and laws forbids it during martial law. “Both Putin and Trump want Zelensky to violate the Ukrainian Constitution” is not the grand slam take you imagine it to be.
- von_lohengramm 8mo ago
  > Every country with conscription will do this if you refuse to show up. Was that MP a draft dodger? The issue isn't them picking draft dodgers, it's them picking up anybody that looks like they might be a draft dodger and the tactics they employ to do it.