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I'd have been sympathetic to that argument up until a few hours ago. But it turns out that they were actually negotiating in better faith than their counter-pa

I'd have been sympathetic to that argument up until a few hours ago. But it turns out that they were actually negotiating in better faith than their counter-party, who have just launched a war whilst still claiming to be interested in a peaceful settlement.

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
> I'd have been sympathetic to that argument up until a few hours ago These are somewhat independent variables. America was open about the fact that we were trying diplomacy before force. Either, one or no sides could have been negotiating in good faith and still wound up here with that setup.
- master_crab 8mo ago
  No they weren’t. Trump cancelled the previous treaty and then wanted a new agreement more favorable to the US than JCPOA. I don’t like the mullah’s in Iran anymore than the next person but no reasonable and sane person would take that to mean “negotiating in good faith.”
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    > no reasonable and sane person would take that to mean “negotiating in good faith.” Taken as a whole, Trump has not been negotiating with Iran in good faith. That does not mean that Iran has been negotiating in good faith.
    - master_crab 8mo ago
      That’s not how life works. If someone takes the first underhanded step, it’s not on the victim to make amends. Iran got burned on JCPOA. Whether we like them or not, you have to address that first before moving on to meaningful talks.
      - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > ran got burned on JCPOA. Whether we like them or not, you have to address that first before moving on to meaningful talks Sure. I think it was probably politically impossible for Iran to negotiate in good faith. That doesn't change that they were not negotiating in good faith.
        master_crab 8mo ago
        You’re conflating good faith and acceding to the US’s new demands based on past behavior.
greenchair 8mo ago
no it doesn't "turn out that". They have a long history of hiding their nuke tech and lying while also issuing death threats to israel. Trust but verify doesn't work with this country.
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > Trust but verify doesn't work with this country I mean, the JCPOA verify seemed pretty well thought out.

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago

> I'd have been sympathetic to that argument up until a few hours ago These are somewhat independent variables. America was open about the fact that we were trying diplomacy before force. Either, one or no sides could have been negotiating in good faith and still wound up here with that setup.

master_crab 8mo ago
No they weren’t. Trump cancelled the previous treaty and then wanted a new agreement more favorable to the US than JCPOA. I don’t like the mullah’s in Iran anymore than the next person but no reasonable and sane person would take that to mean “negotiating in good faith.”
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > no reasonable and sane person would take that to mean “negotiating in good faith.” Taken as a whole, Trump has not been negotiating with Iran in good faith. That does not mean that Iran has been negotiating in good faith.
  - master_crab 8mo ago
    That’s not how life works. If someone takes the first underhanded step, it’s not on the victim to make amends. Iran got burned on JCPOA. Whether we like them or not, you have to address that first before moving on to meaningful talks.
    - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
      > ran got burned on JCPOA. Whether we like them or not, you have to address that first before moving on to meaningful talks Sure. I think it was probably politically impossible for Iran to negotiate in good faith. That doesn't change that they were not negotiating in good faith.
      - master_crab 8mo ago
        You’re conflating good faith and acceding to the US’s new demands based on past behavior.

greenchair 8mo ago

no it doesn't "turn out that". They have a long history of hiding their nuke tech and lying while also issuing death threats to israel. Trust but verify doesn't work with this country.

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
> Trust but verify doesn't work with this country I mean, the JCPOA verify seemed pretty well thought out.