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Yes. Dictatorships suck, but what sucks more is a civil war powered by foreign governments doing a proxy war. Syria is the prime example of this. A major rea

Yes. Dictatorships suck, but what sucks more is a civil war powered by foreign governments doing a proxy war. Syria is the prime example of this. A major reason for the civilian slaughter was foreign intervention trying regime change.

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
> Dictatorships suck, but what sucks more is a civil war powered by foreign governments doing a proxy war It's a macabre study. But one could honestly argue that several countries in the latter category's populations are better off than North Korea's.
- cogman10 8mo ago
  Maybe after the civil war, certainly not during it. If I had to pick where to live, I'd pick North Korea over Ukraine right now because it's a lot easier to live in a dictatorship than an active war zone. (This isn't me saying I want to live in NK, I don't). But I'd also point out that a lot of what makes it really suck to live in the worst places in the world isn't often the government but rather the international relationships. Turkey has a particularly brutal government, but it's Nato and EU ally status means that the civilians enjoy modern trade and travel. The worst times to be in NK was the 90s when there was an ongoing famine and the US refused to lift sanctions thinking it'd spark a civil war that overthrew the regime. It didn't.
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    > I'd pick North Korea over Ukraine right now because it's a lot easier to live in a dictatorship than an active war zone To each their own. I wouldn't. In part because once you're in North Korea, you're not getting out. That isn't the case for Ukraine, Syria or any of the other war-torn countries.
    - cogman10 8mo ago
      It'd depend on my status. There are a lot of people who can't just get out of Ukraine or Syria. The average citizen in Syria had no means to just flee. I'd assume in my above scenario that I'm one of the masses that can't escape. NK does actually allow people to leave, mostly to china and mostly after they attain a high social class. A decent number of tourists, including US citizens, go on tours of NK.
      - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > NK does actually allow people to leave, mostly to china and mostly after they attain a high social class I didn't know this. Source? I thought Pyongyang controls its elites' movement even more strictly than its commoners'.
        cogman10 8mo ago
        [1] Don't get me wrong, movement is highly restricted, but it's not impossible. AFAIK, it's mostly afforded to the elites in NK. I guess I shouldn't have written leave, but to visit other countries. I don't think you can change your citizenship. [1] https://www.youngpioneertours.com/can-north-koreans-travel/ https://www.youngpioneertours.com/can-north-koreans-travel/
    - etc-hosts 8mo ago
      If you are a male between the ages of 17 and 55, you are not getting out of Ukraine right now.
  - walletdrainer 8mo ago
    >I'd pick North Korea over Ukraine right now because it's a lot easier to live in a dictatorship than an active war zone You can live a perfectly normal life in Kiev. It’s not exactly an active war zone, you see luxury cars worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on every corner. You can buy bottles of Petrus in 24 hour supermarkets and eat decent food at countless fancy restaurants. Goodwine in Kiev will also put US luxury grocers to shame. Ukraine might be at war, but the quality of life is hardly bad.
- samrus 8mo ago
  If you had to live in gaza or north korea right now, which would you choose?
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    > If you had to live in gaza or north korea right now, which would you choose? Me as me? Gaza. Because I'd get out. That's a bullshit answer, though, so I'll answer as a local. And there, it's honestly a coin toss because Gaza is possibly the shittiest war zone outside Africa right now. But if you said North Korea or Syria during its civil war? North Korea or Myanmar? I'm going with not Pyongyang. The only one where I'd honestly choose North Korea hands down is Sudan, because that's the one nobody really gives a shit about which means it's going to go on forever.
    - brador 8mo ago
      How would you get out? It’s impossible. Every exit is shut.
      - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > How would you get out? It’s impossible. Every exit is shut. Of course it isn't, it's entirely porous to the IDF. I'm an American citizen. If I were teleported to Gaza I'd probably be fine. At material risk of being fucked up. But I'd take my chances there over being an American teleported to North Korea.
        brador 8mo ago
        Any attempt to walk towards a controlled point or border will get you shot inside 2-3km. Your passport will be removed from your body before it is destroyed. You were never there.
        sph 8mo ago
        Rockets can’t tell what citizenship you are. The fact is no one is launching rockets onto North Korea.
- thrance 8mo ago
  You're making the mistake of correlating these proxy wars with any later improvements in these countries' living conditions. War is always detrimental to quality of life.
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    > You're making the mistake of correlating these proxy wars with any later improvements in these countries' living conditions ...nobody argued the proxy wars were good for those countries. Just that if you're turned into a random local in one of those theatres, chances are you're better off a decade or two later than if you're turned into a random North Korean.
baxtr 8mo ago
> Dictatorships suck, but what sucks more is a civil war powered by foreign governments doing a proxy war. Are you sure about this part?
- cogman10 8mo ago
  Absolutely. No question. War isn't glamorous. It's mechanized death and torture destroying communities, families, and loved ones. And when it's powered by foreign governments, it's worse. Because the two colliding sides are armed to the gills with the best weapons in murder along with mercenaries and no oversight. Living in a dictatorship is hard but doable, There are literally generations of people that have survived and thrived in that sort of an environment. It's not preferable, for sure, but you still have your family, friends, and neighbors. None of them are trying to actively kill you. So long as you follow the rules, life in a dictatorship is generally predicable and the odds of the state making you specifically an example are low.
  - baxtr 8mo ago
    So if a dictatorship decides to invade a neighboring democratic country, the people there should not fight and let them take over, because war is worse than dictatorship, right?
    - cogman10 8mo ago
      A authoritarian regime starting wars isn't one I want to live in either. That's why I don't want to live in Israel. Iran has had civil unrest over the last year, they weren't in the position politically to be doing much of anything to the "democracy" of Israel. The entire reason for the US Israel attack on Iran is because of that civil unrest, not because Iran was a threat, but because both nations see an opportunity to install a puppet government that does their bidding. What remains to be seen is if Russia sees a similar opportunity and we end up with another Syria.
      - baxtr 8mo ago
        You evade answering a simple question. It’s because your logic is flawed. It doesn’t hold up a very simple scrutiny test.

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago

> Dictatorships suck, but what sucks more is a civil war powered by foreign governments doing a proxy war It's a macabre study. But one could honestly argue that several countries in the latter category's populations are better off than North Korea's.

cogman10 8mo ago
Maybe after the civil war, certainly not during it. If I had to pick where to live, I'd pick North Korea over Ukraine right now because it's a lot easier to live in a dictatorship than an active war zone. (This isn't me saying I want to live in NK, I don't). But I'd also point out that a lot of what makes it really suck to live in the worst places in the world isn't often the government but rather the international relationships. Turkey has a particularly brutal government, but it's Nato and EU ally status means that the civilians enjoy modern trade and travel. The worst times to be in NK was the 90s when there was an ongoing famine and the US refused to lift sanctions thinking it'd spark a civil war that overthrew the regime. It didn't.
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > I'd pick North Korea over Ukraine right now because it's a lot easier to live in a dictatorship than an active war zone To each their own. I wouldn't. In part because once you're in North Korea, you're not getting out. That isn't the case for Ukraine, Syria or any of the other war-torn countries.
  - cogman10 8mo ago
    It'd depend on my status. There are a lot of people who can't just get out of Ukraine or Syria. The average citizen in Syria had no means to just flee. I'd assume in my above scenario that I'm one of the masses that can't escape. NK does actually allow people to leave, mostly to china and mostly after they attain a high social class. A decent number of tourists, including US citizens, go on tours of NK.
    - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
      > NK does actually allow people to leave, mostly to china and mostly after they attain a high social class I didn't know this. Source? I thought Pyongyang controls its elites' movement even more strictly than its commoners'.
      - cogman10 8mo ago
        [1] Don't get me wrong, movement is highly restricted, but it's not impossible. AFAIK, it's mostly afforded to the elites in NK. I guess I shouldn't have written leave, but to visit other countries. I don't think you can change your citizenship. [1] https://www.youngpioneertours.com/can-north-koreans-travel/ https://www.youngpioneertours.com/can-north-koreans-travel/
  - etc-hosts 8mo ago
    If you are a male between the ages of 17 and 55, you are not getting out of Ukraine right now.
- walletdrainer 8mo ago
  >I'd pick North Korea over Ukraine right now because it's a lot easier to live in a dictatorship than an active war zone You can live a perfectly normal life in Kiev. It’s not exactly an active war zone, you see luxury cars worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on every corner. You can buy bottles of Petrus in 24 hour supermarkets and eat decent food at countless fancy restaurants. Goodwine in Kiev will also put US luxury grocers to shame. Ukraine might be at war, but the quality of life is hardly bad.
samrus 8mo ago
If you had to live in gaza or north korea right now, which would you choose?
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > If you had to live in gaza or north korea right now, which would you choose? Me as me? Gaza. Because I'd get out. That's a bullshit answer, though, so I'll answer as a local. And there, it's honestly a coin toss because Gaza is possibly the shittiest war zone outside Africa right now. But if you said North Korea or Syria during its civil war? North Korea or Myanmar? I'm going with not Pyongyang. The only one where I'd honestly choose North Korea hands down is Sudan, because that's the one nobody really gives a shit about which means it's going to go on forever.
  - brador 8mo ago
    How would you get out? It’s impossible. Every exit is shut.
    - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
      > How would you get out? It’s impossible. Every exit is shut. Of course it isn't, it's entirely porous to the IDF. I'm an American citizen. If I were teleported to Gaza I'd probably be fine. At material risk of being fucked up. But I'd take my chances there over being an American teleported to North Korea.
      - brador 8mo ago
        Any attempt to walk towards a controlled point or border will get you shot inside 2-3km. Your passport will be removed from your body before it is destroyed. You were never there.
      - sph 8mo ago
        Rockets can’t tell what citizenship you are. The fact is no one is launching rockets onto North Korea.
thrance 8mo ago
You're making the mistake of correlating these proxy wars with any later improvements in these countries' living conditions. War is always detrimental to quality of life.
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > You're making the mistake of correlating these proxy wars with any later improvements in these countries' living conditions ...nobody argued the proxy wars were good for those countries. Just that if you're turned into a random local in one of those theatres, chances are you're better off a decade or two later than if you're turned into a random North Korean.

baxtr 8mo ago

> Dictatorships suck, but what sucks more is a civil war powered by foreign governments doing a proxy war. Are you sure about this part?

cogman10 8mo ago
Absolutely. No question. War isn't glamorous. It's mechanized death and torture destroying communities, families, and loved ones. And when it's powered by foreign governments, it's worse. Because the two colliding sides are armed to the gills with the best weapons in murder along with mercenaries and no oversight. Living in a dictatorship is hard but doable, There are literally generations of people that have survived and thrived in that sort of an environment. It's not preferable, for sure, but you still have your family, friends, and neighbors. None of them are trying to actively kill you. So long as you follow the rules, life in a dictatorship is generally predicable and the odds of the state making you specifically an example are low.
- baxtr 8mo ago
  So if a dictatorship decides to invade a neighboring democratic country, the people there should not fight and let them take over, because war is worse than dictatorship, right?
  - cogman10 8mo ago
    A authoritarian regime starting wars isn't one I want to live in either. That's why I don't want to live in Israel. Iran has had civil unrest over the last year, they weren't in the position politically to be doing much of anything to the "democracy" of Israel. The entire reason for the US Israel attack on Iran is because of that civil unrest, not because Iran was a threat, but because both nations see an opportunity to install a puppet government that does their bidding. What remains to be seen is if Russia sees a similar opportunity and we end up with another Syria.
    - baxtr 8mo ago
      You evade answering a simple question. It’s because your logic is flawed. It doesn’t hold up a very simple scrutiny test.