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>I've read your responses below and you're weirdly contemptuous of these frameworks. No, just that using the word "framework" in reference to something that is

>I've read your responses below and you're weirdly contemptuous of these frameworks. No, just that using the word "framework" in reference to something that is in no way even remotely like a framework caused much confusion. I was expecting it to be a framework, and was trying to figure out what I was missing. If the answer is (and others have already said this is the case) "its just a design to copy" that's fine. Although I do find it pretty absurd that so many people seem to want to suggest that "a default stylesheet" is some revolution in web design, and is a "framework". Hasn't everyone already used their own default stylesheet since the 90s?

fatbird 14y ago
Okay, now I get it: You're trolling HN. Good for you. You got me.
- lelandbatey 14y ago
  Please don't use a cop out like this. I don't think that writing someone off is very helpful to the discussion, and it's made worse when you don't explain yourself. To respond to papsosouid: I'll be very honest, I have little experience with most of the skills that others on HN commonly have (lots of code experience, tinkering with projects, etc) so I can only speak to what I think about BootStrap. For me, BootStrap is a great tool to make web pages in a way that: 1. I know will work. 2. I know will look acceptable. It's rather like the Ikea of CSS. It's simple, clear, and accessible for someone with little design sense or experience (like me!). I feel like that was part of your underlying question: "Why do people use this?" The other part of your question would be "How is this a framework?" Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs. Based off of that definition, I feel that this very well fits what BootStrap is. It's a set of pre-made tools (CSS classes) that can be easily modified to fit specific cases. [0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    >Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs. Yeah, that's the definition I was going on too. It doesn't seem like it describes bootstrap to me any more than it describes every stylesheet ever made. The nature of CSS is that you can override previously defined styles. When I see "CSS framework" my expectation was something like an actual framework, where a compiler processes some custom language to generate the specific CSS you need based off the components provided by the framework. Clearly my interpretation of "framework" is atypical.
    - ZeroGravitas 14y ago
      I don't know if this makes it fit your definition of "framework" any better, but to create the CSS provided by Bootstrap a "compiler processes some custom language" (they use http://lesscss.org/ http://lesscss.org/) and you can tweak variables to get different CSS output. You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't.
      - papsosouid 14y ago
        >You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't. I don't think you couldn't. I just mean that if "you can override styles" makes it a framework, then every stylesheet ever written is a framework. Perhaps I am missing something, but it appears to just use LESS the same way everyone else does (or the same way everyone uses SASS anyhow), just as a simple pre-processor, not to create what I was thinking of as a framework.
        lelandbatey 14y ago
        I do agree with you that their choice of label is rather confusing/doesn't fit the best. However, I can't think of a short descriptor for bootstrap that describes: "BootStrap is a set of generic, reliable, compatible and stylish CSS classes that you are free to use." Actually, I'd really prefer that right there to be on the front page. In fact, I'd really love it if most product descriptions were expanded a bit to provide more info. Hmmmm... I think I may write about that.

fatbird 14y ago

Okay, now I get it: You're trolling HN. Good for you. You got me.

lelandbatey 14y ago
Please don't use a cop out like this. I don't think that writing someone off is very helpful to the discussion, and it's made worse when you don't explain yourself. To respond to papsosouid: I'll be very honest, I have little experience with most of the skills that others on HN commonly have (lots of code experience, tinkering with projects, etc) so I can only speak to what I think about BootStrap. For me, BootStrap is a great tool to make web pages in a way that: 1. I know will work. 2. I know will look acceptable. It's rather like the Ikea of CSS. It's simple, clear, and accessible for someone with little design sense or experience (like me!). I feel like that was part of your underlying question: "Why do people use this?" The other part of your question would be "How is this a framework?" Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs. Based off of that definition, I feel that this very well fits what BootStrap is. It's a set of pre-made tools (CSS classes) that can be easily modified to fit specific cases. [0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework
- papsosouid 14y ago
  >Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs. Yeah, that's the definition I was going on too. It doesn't seem like it describes bootstrap to me any more than it describes every stylesheet ever made. The nature of CSS is that you can override previously defined styles. When I see "CSS framework" my expectation was something like an actual framework, where a compiler processes some custom language to generate the specific CSS you need based off the components provided by the framework. Clearly my interpretation of "framework" is atypical.
  - ZeroGravitas 14y ago
    I don't know if this makes it fit your definition of "framework" any better, but to create the CSS provided by Bootstrap a "compiler processes some custom language" (they use http://lesscss.org/ http://lesscss.org/) and you can tweak variables to get different CSS output. You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't.
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      >You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't. I don't think you couldn't. I just mean that if "you can override styles" makes it a framework, then every stylesheet ever written is a framework. Perhaps I am missing something, but it appears to just use LESS the same way everyone else does (or the same way everyone uses SASS anyhow), just as a simple pre-processor, not to create what I was thinking of as a framework.
      - lelandbatey 14y ago
        I do agree with you that their choice of label is rather confusing/doesn't fit the best. However, I can't think of a short descriptor for bootstrap that describes: "BootStrap is a set of generic, reliable, compatible and stylish CSS classes that you are free to use." Actually, I'd really prefer that right there to be on the front page. In fact, I'd really love it if most product descriptions were expanded a bit to provide more info. Hmmmm... I think I may write about that.