4 ms·

For Linux it will be way more problematic because: - A lot of of corporate contributions comes from SV. - Linux Foundation is incorporated in CA. - Linus him

For Linux it will be way more problematic because: - A lot of of corporate contributions comes from SV. - Linux Foundation is incorporated in CA. - Linus himself is CA's resident AFAIR. So there is zero chance of claiming no jurisdiction. The only hope is whoever is enforcing this batshit wouldn't go after what is essentially not an OS for the purpose of the bill, but rather an internal component (it would be like going after a vendor of bolts and nuts for noncompliance of a toaster).

mghackerlady 8mo ago
[flagged]
- tliltocatl 8mo ago
  Stop spreading disinformation. Linus and others did most of the work in the kernel. GNU project on the kernel side was architecture astronaut vaporware aka "Hurd". They were much more successful in userland (coreutils, gcc and the toolchain, gdb, Emacs, to name a few).
  - mghackerlady 8mo ago
    I meant the userland specifically. By calling what is fundamentally a GNU system running on a different kernel just "linux" it makes people think linux and his crew made all of the userland, in part because saying a college student made "an entire operating system" is far more profitable for news agencies than acknowledging his important but overall relatively small role in what they call "linux"
    - tliltocatl 8mo ago
      Because the kernel is the irreplaceable piece. None of what GNU did is: there are numerous implementations of coreutils and shells and at least one non-GNU production-quality compiler toolchain (clang-llvm), a few alternative libcs. And many distribution do actively use the non-GNU parts. But none of this is useful without the kernel that is compatible with computers people have. And the only usable kernel we have is Linux (while BSDs are out there too, they take a much different tightly-integrated approach to userspace).
      - spijdar 8mo ago
        To add to this: I can appreciate the significance of GNU, especially in early Linux distributions, but the position of "GNU was the real OS, Linux was just the kernel" is also deceptive, IMO. Sure, a lot of the userspace was GNU, but a lot of it ... wasn't. Things like PAM, the init system, and the network config tools, off the top of my head. A lot of system-specific tools come from "not-GNU", too. You can't discount how much of early Linux was "GNU", and how big a deal GCC and GNU libc (and the rest!) were, but it's disingenuous in my opinion to call GNU an "operating system" that you just plugged Linux, the kernel, into. Even today, as far as I can tell, there is still not a true GNU system. Guix comes close, in terms of being "GNU-ish", but the most usable Hurd distro (AFAIK!) is Debian, where, again, a lot of components come from Debian, rather than GNU. And, as you say, modern systems have drifted even further from being GNU. They have lots of GNU components, but so did, say, the Sprite OS, or a lot of 4.4BSD derivatives.
        mghackerlady 8mo ago
        On that note, one of these days I want to make the GNU system as it was imagined a reality. Perhaps with the linux kernel as its kernel, maybe with co-official status with the hurd
      - mghackerlady 8mo ago
        Oh, I don't discount that! That's why I find it important to specify GNU/Linux. Not only is it respectful, but it makes the very important distinction that it is a Linux system running a GNU userland instead of a plan9 one or a busybox one. Usually when people speak of "linux" they're referring to GNU/Linux though
helterskelter 8mo ago
I believe Linus lives in Oregon.
thayne 8mo ago
It's more likely to be an issue for distributions like Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. Although, if I'm understanding this correctly, I think all they would have to do to comply is have something during installation that asks for the age category, and write a file that is world readable, but only writable by root that contains that category that applications can read.
- Brian_K_White 8mo ago
  That is already way too much as far as I'm concerned. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action. Smallness and easiness isn't an excuse. If you write a story, there must be a character in it somewhere that reminds kids not to smoke. That's all. It's very easy.
  - fc417fc802 8mo ago
    I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things. However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where it could have instead mandated queries that are strictly local to the device.
    - iamnothere 8mo ago
      Under no circumstances should we be “mandating” how hobbyists write their software. If you want to scope this to commercial OSes, be my guest. That’s not what was done here.
      - fc417fc802 8mo ago
        I'm not sure where the line between "hobby" and "professional" lies when it comes to linux distributions. Many of them are nonprofit but not really hobbyist at this point. Debian sure feels like a professional product to me (I daily drive it). We regulate how a hobbyist constructs and uses a radio. We regulate how a hobbyist constructs a shed in his yard or makes modifications to the electrical wiring in his house. I think mandating the implementation of strictly device local filtering based on a standardized HTTP header (or in the case of apps an attached metadata field) would be reasonably non-invasive and of benefit to society (similar to mandating USB C).
pkaye 8mo ago
I think Linus Torvalds lives in Oregon.
fsckboy 8mo ago
"Linux" is just the source code to the kernel, pure free speech, and it can't run by itself in order to ask anybody anything. Underage programmers will benefit from the education of reading it.
- josephg 8mo ago
  Exactly. More bluntly, the Linux kernel isn't an operating system.

mghackerlady 8mo ago

[flagged]

tliltocatl 8mo ago
Stop spreading disinformation. Linus and others did most of the work in the kernel. GNU project on the kernel side was architecture astronaut vaporware aka "Hurd". They were much more successful in userland (coreutils, gcc and the toolchain, gdb, Emacs, to name a few).
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  I meant the userland specifically. By calling what is fundamentally a GNU system running on a different kernel just "linux" it makes people think linux and his crew made all of the userland, in part because saying a college student made "an entire operating system" is far more profitable for news agencies than acknowledging his important but overall relatively small role in what they call "linux"
  - tliltocatl 8mo ago
    Because the kernel is the irreplaceable piece. None of what GNU did is: there are numerous implementations of coreutils and shells and at least one non-GNU production-quality compiler toolchain (clang-llvm), a few alternative libcs. And many distribution do actively use the non-GNU parts. But none of this is useful without the kernel that is compatible with computers people have. And the only usable kernel we have is Linux (while BSDs are out there too, they take a much different tightly-integrated approach to userspace).
    - spijdar 8mo ago
      To add to this: I can appreciate the significance of GNU, especially in early Linux distributions, but the position of "GNU was the real OS, Linux was just the kernel" is also deceptive, IMO. Sure, a lot of the userspace was GNU, but a lot of it ... wasn't. Things like PAM, the init system, and the network config tools, off the top of my head. A lot of system-specific tools come from "not-GNU", too. You can't discount how much of early Linux was "GNU", and how big a deal GCC and GNU libc (and the rest!) were, but it's disingenuous in my opinion to call GNU an "operating system" that you just plugged Linux, the kernel, into. Even today, as far as I can tell, there is still not a true GNU system. Guix comes close, in terms of being "GNU-ish", but the most usable Hurd distro (AFAIK!) is Debian, where, again, a lot of components come from Debian, rather than GNU. And, as you say, modern systems have drifted even further from being GNU. They have lots of GNU components, but so did, say, the Sprite OS, or a lot of 4.4BSD derivatives.
      - mghackerlady 8mo ago
        On that note, one of these days I want to make the GNU system as it was imagined a reality. Perhaps with the linux kernel as its kernel, maybe with co-official status with the hurd
    - mghackerlady 8mo ago
      Oh, I don't discount that! That's why I find it important to specify GNU/Linux. Not only is it respectful, but it makes the very important distinction that it is a Linux system running a GNU userland instead of a plan9 one or a busybox one. Usually when people speak of "linux" they're referring to GNU/Linux though

helterskelter 8mo ago

I believe Linus lives in Oregon.

thayne 8mo ago

It's more likely to be an issue for distributions like Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. Although, if I'm understanding this correctly, I think all they would have to do to comply is have something during installation that asks for the age category, and write a file that is world readable, but only writable by root that contains that category that applications can read.

Brian_K_White 8mo ago
That is already way too much as far as I'm concerned. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action. Smallness and easiness isn't an excuse. If you write a story, there must be a character in it somewhere that reminds kids not to smoke. That's all. It's very easy.
- fc417fc802 8mo ago
  I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things. However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where it could have instead mandated queries that are strictly local to the device.
  - iamnothere 8mo ago
    Under no circumstances should we be “mandating” how hobbyists write their software. If you want to scope this to commercial OSes, be my guest. That’s not what was done here.
    - fc417fc802 8mo ago
      I'm not sure where the line between "hobby" and "professional" lies when it comes to linux distributions. Many of them are nonprofit but not really hobbyist at this point. Debian sure feels like a professional product to me (I daily drive it). We regulate how a hobbyist constructs and uses a radio. We regulate how a hobbyist constructs a shed in his yard or makes modifications to the electrical wiring in his house. I think mandating the implementation of strictly device local filtering based on a standardized HTTP header (or in the case of apps an attached metadata field) would be reasonably non-invasive and of benefit to society (similar to mandating USB C).

pkaye 8mo ago

I think Linus Torvalds lives in Oregon.

fsckboy 8mo ago

"Linux" is just the source code to the kernel, pure free speech, and it can't run by itself in order to ask anybody anything. Underage programmers will benefit from the education of reading it.

josephg 8mo ago
Exactly. More bluntly, the Linux kernel isn't an operating system.