10 ms·

as a kernel developer, I use LLMs for some tasks, but can say it is not there yet to write real kernel space code

ACCount37 7mo ago
Same. Having an LLM helps, especially when you're facing a new subsystem you're not familiar with, and trying to understand how things are done there. They still can't do the heavy duty driver work by themselves - but are good enough for basic guidance and boilerplate.
- trollbridge 7mo ago
  Guidance and boilerplate... in other words, documentation.
  - UqWBcuFx6NV4r 7mo ago
    No, dude. Do you genuinely think that people don’t know what documentation is? That’s insulting. An LLM can help surface relevant information, taking your intent / goals into account, summarising vast quantities of code and indeed other documentation. That’s, like, their single most effective use.
    - trollbridge 7mo ago
      I am aware - I use the all day. But I think it’s a poor substitute for effective, well written documentation, tutorials, and examples. A lot of open source code (and commercial, too) is moving in the direction of nearly zero documentation and they just provide an LLM prompt to pipe to | claude -p. This is not a great change. For starters, LLMs often get confused when a project is internally reorganised and mix different versions together. They will also often recommend using a module’s internal structures. (I spent half a day fighting datamodel-code-generate with this exact problem, so it’s fresh on my mind.) EDIT: the account I’m responding to appears to be some kind of AI and appears to be prompted with “make snarky, argumentative comments”. If you are a real human, please accept my apology for this accusation.
- hedora 7mo ago
  My reading of their AI statement says your kernel contributions are no longer welcome in PostmarketOS, and also, since you're encouraging others in their space to use such tools, you're in violation of their code of conduct. This applies to the person you're replying to too. I think their policy is poorly thought out, and that little good will come of it. At best, it'll cause drama in the project, and discourage useful contributions. It's a shame, since we desperately need an alternative to the phone duopoly.
crimsonnoodle58 7mo ago
Exactly, you can use it for some tasks. But why "explicitly forbid generative AI". If you use AI to make repetitive tasks less repetitive, and clean up any LLM-ness afterwards, would they notice or care? I find blanket bans inhibitive, and reeks of fear of change, rather than a real substantive stance.
- jonathrg 7mo ago
  They explain why in their AI policy. It's an ethical stance. Of course they wouldn't notice if there aren't clear signs of LLM-ness, but that's not the main reason why they forbid it. https://docs.postmarketos.org/policies-and-processes/development/ai-policy.html https://docs.postmarketos.org/policies-and-processes/develop...
  - crimsonnoodle58 7mo ago
    Thanks for the clarification. Not that I agree with their stance (the exact same could have been said at the start of the industrial revolution) but I respect it nonetheless.
    - coldpie 7mo ago
      > the exact same could have been said at the start of the industrial revolution The pollution caused by said revolution is currently putting humanity at a serious risk of world war and maybe even extinction so... maybe they had a point? I'm not taking a strong stance either way here, but worth thinking about the downsides from the industrial revolution, too.
- jsheard 7mo ago
  > But why "explicitly forbid generative AI". The AI policy linked from the OP explains why. It's half not wanting to deal with slop, and half ethical concerns which still apply when it's used judiciously.
- zozbot234 7mo ago
  > and clean up any LLM-ness afterwards That never happens. It's actually easier to write the code from scratch and avoid LLMness altogether.
egorfine 7mo ago
Absolutely. But at the same time I cannot imagine reverting to code with no help of LLMs. Asking stackoverflow and waiting for hours to get my question closed down instead of asking LLM? No way.
- cuu508 7mo ago
  > But at the same time I cannot imagine reverting to code with no help of LLMs. And doesn't that bother you a little? If you listen to podcasts, check out this podcast episode: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/cautionary-tales/flying-too-high-ai-and-air-france-flight-447 https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/cautionary-tales/flying-too-... It is about Air France 447, but also draws parallels to AI and self-driving cars
  - egorfine 7mo ago
    Look, every medicine is a poison as well. Every single byte of code I commit I fully understand. I am strongly against slop. However I'm not going back to asking stackoverflow and pretend that I have nowhere else to find answers.
    - ZenoArrow 7mo ago
      > However I'm not going back to asking stackoverflow and pretend that I have nowhere else to find answers. That's not your only option. What you're meant to do is understand the tools you're using well enough to not need to ask for help from anyone or anything else. Stack Overflow is useful, but it's a learning tool. If all you were doing before AI was copying and modifying other people's code, it's no wonder that you have taken to AI, because it's just a slightly more convenient form of that.
      - egorfine 7mo ago
        > If all you were doing before AI was copying and modifying other people's code Aren't we all in a sense?

Same. Having an LLM helps, especially when you're facing a new subsystem you're not familiar with, and trying to understand how things are done there. They still can't do the heavy duty driver work by themselves - but are good enough for basic guidance and boilerplate.

trollbridge 7mo ago
Guidance and boilerplate... in other words, documentation.
- UqWBcuFx6NV4r 7mo ago
  No, dude. Do you genuinely think that people don’t know what documentation is? That’s insulting. An LLM can help surface relevant information, taking your intent / goals into account, summarising vast quantities of code and indeed other documentation. That’s, like, their single most effective use.
  - trollbridge 7mo ago
    I am aware - I use the all day. But I think it’s a poor substitute for effective, well written documentation, tutorials, and examples. A lot of open source code (and commercial, too) is moving in the direction of nearly zero documentation and they just provide an LLM prompt to pipe to | claude -p. This is not a great change. For starters, LLMs often get confused when a project is internally reorganised and mix different versions together. They will also often recommend using a module’s internal structures. (I spent half a day fighting datamodel-code-generate with this exact problem, so it’s fresh on my mind.) EDIT: the account I’m responding to appears to be some kind of AI and appears to be prompted with “make snarky, argumentative comments”. If you are a real human, please accept my apology for this accusation.
hedora 7mo ago
My reading of their AI statement says your kernel contributions are no longer welcome in PostmarketOS, and also, since you're encouraging others in their space to use such tools, you're in violation of their code of conduct. This applies to the person you're replying to too. I think their policy is poorly thought out, and that little good will come of it. At best, it'll cause drama in the project, and discourage useful contributions. It's a shame, since we desperately need an alternative to the phone duopoly.

crimsonnoodle58 7mo ago

Exactly, you can use it for some tasks. But why "explicitly forbid generative AI". If you use AI to make repetitive tasks less repetitive, and clean up any LLM-ness afterwards, would they notice or care? I find blanket bans inhibitive, and reeks of fear of change, rather than a real substantive stance.

jonathrg 7mo ago
They explain why in their AI policy. It's an ethical stance. Of course they wouldn't notice if there aren't clear signs of LLM-ness, but that's not the main reason why they forbid it. https://docs.postmarketos.org/policies-and-processes/development/ai-policy.html https://docs.postmarketos.org/policies-and-processes/develop...
- crimsonnoodle58 7mo ago
  Thanks for the clarification. Not that I agree with their stance (the exact same could have been said at the start of the industrial revolution) but I respect it nonetheless.
  - coldpie 7mo ago
    > the exact same could have been said at the start of the industrial revolution The pollution caused by said revolution is currently putting humanity at a serious risk of world war and maybe even extinction so... maybe they had a point? I'm not taking a strong stance either way here, but worth thinking about the downsides from the industrial revolution, too.
jsheard 7mo ago
> But why "explicitly forbid generative AI". The AI policy linked from the OP explains why. It's half not wanting to deal with slop, and half ethical concerns which still apply when it's used judiciously.
zozbot234 7mo ago
> and clean up any LLM-ness afterwards That never happens. It's actually easier to write the code from scratch and avoid LLMness altogether.

egorfine 7mo ago

Absolutely. But at the same time I cannot imagine reverting to code with no help of LLMs. Asking stackoverflow and waiting for hours to get my question closed down instead of asking LLM? No way.

cuu508 7mo ago
> But at the same time I cannot imagine reverting to code with no help of LLMs. And doesn't that bother you a little? If you listen to podcasts, check out this podcast episode: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/cautionary-tales/flying-too-high-ai-and-air-france-flight-447 https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/cautionary-tales/flying-too-... It is about Air France 447, but also draws parallels to AI and self-driving cars
- egorfine 7mo ago
  Look, every medicine is a poison as well. Every single byte of code I commit I fully understand. I am strongly against slop. However I'm not going back to asking stackoverflow and pretend that I have nowhere else to find answers.
  - ZenoArrow 7mo ago
    > However I'm not going back to asking stackoverflow and pretend that I have nowhere else to find answers. That's not your only option. What you're meant to do is understand the tools you're using well enough to not need to ask for help from anyone or anything else. Stack Overflow is useful, but it's a learning tool. If all you were doing before AI was copying and modifying other people's code, it's no wonder that you have taken to AI, because it's just a slightly more convenient form of that.
    - egorfine 7mo ago
      > If all you were doing before AI was copying and modifying other people's code Aren't we all in a sense?