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Weird stance to take. I can understand "untested AI-genned code is bad, and thus anything that reeks of AI is going to be scrutinized" - especially given that
by ACCount37 8mo ago
Weird stance to take.
I can understand "untested AI-genned code is bad, and thus anything that reeks of AI is going to be scrutinized" - especially given that PostmarketOS deals a lot with kernel drivers for hardware. Notoriously low error margins. But they just had to go out of their way and make it ideological rather than pragmatic.
- yehoshuapw 8mo agoas a kernel developer, I use LLMs for some tasks, but can say it is not there yet to write real kernel space code
- ACCount37 8mo agoSame. Having an LLM helps, especially when you're facing a new subsystem you're not familiar with, and trying to understand how things are done there. They still can't do the heavy duty driver work by themselves - but are good enough for basic guidance and boilerplate.
- trollbridge 8mo agoGuidance and boilerplate... in other words, documentation.
- UqWBcuFx6NV4r 8mo agoNo, dude. Do you genuinely think that people don’t know what documentation is? That’s insulting. An LLM can help surface relevant information, taking your intent / goals into account, summarising vast quantities of code and indeed other documentation. That’s, like, their single most effective use.
- trollbridge 8mo agoI am aware - I use the all day. But I think it’s a poor substitute for effective, well written documentation, tutorials, and examples. A lot of open source code (and commercial, too) is moving in the direction of nearly zero documentation and they just provide an LLM prompt to pipe to | claude -p. This is not a great change. For starters, LLMs often get confused when a project is internally reorganised and mix different versions together. They will also often recommend using a module’s internal structures. (I spent half a day fighting datamodel-code-generate with this exact problem, so it’s fresh on my mind.) EDIT: the account I’m responding to appears to be some kind of AI and appears to be prompted with “make snarky, argumentative comments”. If you are a real human, please accept my apology for this accusation.
- hedora 8mo agoMy reading of their AI statement says your kernel contributions are no longer welcome in PostmarketOS, and also, since you're encouraging others in their space to use such tools, you're in violation of their code of conduct. This applies to the person you're replying to too. I think their policy is poorly thought out, and that little good will come of it. At best, it'll cause drama in the project, and discourage useful contributions. It's a shame, since we desperately need an alternative to the phone duopoly.
- crimsonnoodle58 8mo agoExactly, you can use it for some tasks. But why "explicitly forbid generative AI". If you use AI to make repetitive tasks less repetitive, and clean up any LLM-ness afterwards, would they notice or care? I find blanket bans inhibitive, and reeks of fear of change, rather than a real substantive stance.
- jonathrg 8mo agoThey explain why in their AI policy. It's an ethical stance. Of course they wouldn't notice if there aren't clear signs of LLM-ness, but that's not the main reason why they forbid it. https://docs.postmarketos.org/policies-and-processes/development/ai-policy.html https://docs.postmarketos.org/policies-and-processes/develop...
- crimsonnoodle58 8mo agoThanks for the clarification. Not that I agree with their stance (the exact same could have been said at the start of the industrial revolution) but I respect it nonetheless.
- coldpie 8mo ago> the exact same could have been said at the start of the industrial revolution The pollution caused by said revolution is currently putting humanity at a serious risk of world war and maybe even extinction so... maybe they had a point? I'm not taking a strong stance either way here, but worth thinking about the downsides from the industrial revolution, too.
- jsheard 8mo ago> But why "explicitly forbid generative AI". The AI policy linked from the OP explains why. It's half not wanting to deal with slop, and half ethical concerns which still apply when it's used judiciously.
- zozbot234 8mo ago> and clean up any LLM-ness afterwards That never happens. It's actually easier to write the code from scratch and avoid LLMness altogether.
- egorfine 8mo agoAbsolutely. But at the same time I cannot imagine reverting to code with no help of LLMs. Asking stackoverflow and waiting for hours to get my question closed down instead of asking LLM? No way.
- cuu508 8mo ago> But at the same time I cannot imagine reverting to code with no help of LLMs. And doesn't that bother you a little? If you listen to podcasts, check out this podcast episode: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/cautionary-tales/flying-too-high-ai-and-air-france-flight-447 https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/cautionary-tales/flying-too-... It is about Air France 447, but also draws parallels to AI and self-driving cars
- egorfine 8mo agoLook, every medicine is a poison as well. Every single byte of code I commit I fully understand. I am strongly against slop. However I'm not going back to asking stackoverflow and pretend that I have nowhere else to find answers.
- ZenoArrow 8mo ago> However I'm not going back to asking stackoverflow and pretend that I have nowhere else to find answers. That's not your only option. What you're meant to do is understand the tools you're using well enough to not need to ask for help from anyone or anything else. Stack Overflow is useful, but it's a learning tool. If all you were doing before AI was copying and modifying other people's code, it's no wonder that you have taken to AI, because it's just a slightly more convenient form of that.
- egorfine 8mo ago> If all you were doing before AI was copying and modifying other people's code Aren't we all in a sense?
- jonathrg 8mo agoIt's fine for a project to have moral/ideological leanings, it's only weird if you insist that project teams should be entirely amoral.
- trollbridge 8mo agoThe main reason open source projects exist at all is because of people who started them with quite often fringe ideological leanings. Just look at the GNU project.
- Joker_vD 8mo agoAnd fringe economical leanings, too. Just look at the GNU project: the firmware in printers is still of subpar quality, and GNU didn't really help to change that... and why on Earth would it, anyway?
- UqWBcuFx6NV4r 8mo ago[flagged]
- trollbridge 8mo agoThis doesn’t make any sense?
- Joker_vD 8mo ago> It's fine for a project to have moral/ideological leanings As long as they align with the correct (i.e. yours) values, of course. When they adopt the wrong values, it's not fine.
- xantronix 8mo agoThe licensure of the code generated by LLMs is not a settled matter in all jurisdictions; this is a very valid pragmatic concern they address.