5 ms·

Crowdfunded research into how amphetamines work

72 points by bmahmood 14y ago

mcs 14y ago
Title is a bit sensationalist don't you think? It's at least under the guise of research.
- bmahmood 14y ago
  Apologies, but that's the general headline the researcher is using to raise awareness for the initiative. Can read more here: http://mashable.com/2012/10/25/rockethub-meth-lab/ http://mashable.com/2012/10/25/rockethub-meth-lab/
- aware2 14y ago
  Is it?
  - ninetax 14y ago
    The title was "Crowdfund a Meth Lab" but it has been changed.
    - bmahmood 14y ago
      Sorry, not sure why the title changed. Was originally 'Crowd Fund a Meth Lab', as noted in other media outlets.
bmahmood 14y ago
For more information on the researcher's discipline, you can check out this neat video on 'Evolutionary Pharmacology': http://vimeo.com/44687770 http://vimeo.com/44687770
Vuki777 14y ago
Catchy title, great project.
gbeeson 14y ago
Clicked for the title, stayed for the project write up.
cmaxwe 14y ago
They should get Walter White to show them how to cook blue meth.
keefe 14y ago
> How will we spend your money? on lawyers
- dmix 14y ago
  Amphetiamines are used by the military to keep pilots awake and has a plenty of other legal uses. Methamphetiamine, for example, is prescribed by doctors to treat ADHD in low doses. What exactly is illegal about researching the effects of the drug on the brain? The usual difficultly in studying this stuff is finding funding.
  - nowarninglabel 14y ago
    Either you live in a country with much more liberal drug laws than the UK or US, or you are a bit misinformed. These countries have very strict regulations on who can possess quantities of scheduled narcotics, even for research. It took nearly a decade to get regulatory approval to schedule a MDMA research study in the U.S. It's hard to find source on this stuff, but you can see as noted here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22280-a-real-fmri-high-my-ecstasy-brain-scan.html http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22280-a-real-fmri-high...
    - dmix 14y ago
      MDMA is not used clinically like Amphetamines are. You can find amphetamines at pharmacies in the USA under the brands: Adderall, Dexedrine, Dextrostat, Desoxyn, Didrex, ProCentra, and Vyvanse. In addition, the article doesn't say they are specifically going to use Meth, only amphetamine.
      - bennyg 14y ago
        Exactly. Desoxyn is brand name for dextro-methamphetamine, the CNS-active stereo isomer. Levo-methamphetamine is found in those little Vicks nasal inhalers you stuff in each nostril to clear your sinuses.
      - keefe 14y ago
ahillelt 14y ago
That's pretty awesome! Citizen Science here we come!
- omnisci 14y ago
  Citizen science is one of the goals of my YC application :) It will be here soon.
Vuki777 14y ago
I liked the old title better...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
digitalpacman 14y ago
I don't get it. All of these people on the project would typically have amounts of money for research on whatever they want to do. Why do they need more money? I guess I am missing the point. I've heard of a bunch professors from friends that have huge research funds. They can even give portions of their research grants to students.
- polyfractal 14y ago
  As an ex-academic type, your statement is both true and false. Some professors have large research grants, and indeed, their grants are what pay the salaries of grad students and post-docs. Other professors (the vast majority) struggle to get appropriate funding. It's a horrible rat race to scrounge up enough money to continue your research. God forbid if you aren't tenured - your job literally depends on how much funding you can bring in (not enough papers = not enough funding = sacked for someone else). That said, $25k is laughably small amount of money in research. At my old lab, I performed an experiment where I was easily blowing $1000 per week. And I was just a single technician in a lab. Hell, I spent more in supplies than I was paid in salary (probably by some multiple).
  - cup 14y ago
    I agree about the $25K part. I fail to see how they plan to achieve anything when a single vial of ultra purified drug API or even dendrimer will see you back a few thousand dollars. I mean their intentions are great but I get the feeling they're yet to experience the crushing and pessimistic realities of scientific and especially pharmaceutical/neurobiological research. It's a depressign world for us sometimes. Edit: In review, I would be very interested to read about how they were given permission to experiment on mice. Filling out the paperwork just to get ethical approval alone is a daunting task.
    - omnisci 14y ago
      $25k for a single experiment is possible. I've applied to the national science foundation for a single experiment and my budget (along with funds for me to present the data at a conference (~$1500) was around $12k as we had most of the stuff I needed already. This lab is already established, they just need some extra funds to run this specific experiment (from what I've read). Re: mouse work. I'm assuming they already have the facilities to run these experiments...especially at Princeton. If they don't, I'm sure a neighboring lab has the mice/protocols to run this experiment and they will/can cola berate. They write up an IACUC protocol, go through a few bouts of revisions and they should be able to run the experiment. This would be a simple protocol as they are just injecting mice with the drug, this isn't out of the ordinary by any means.
sophiabatka464 14y ago
Loosies 2012 is a romantic comedy-drama film written and produced by Peter Facinelli, and directed by Michael Corrente. The film stars Peter Facinelli, Jaimie Alexander, Michael Madsen, Joe Pantoliano, William Forsythe, Glenn Ciano, Vincent Gallo and Chad A. Verdi.A young pickpocket in the New York subways, living a fast, lifestyle is confronted by a woman whom he had a one night affair with, she informs him that she is now pregnant with his child, he must now choose between continuing the lifestyle he lead or take responsibility for his actions.A young pickpocket in the New York subways, living a fast, free, lifestyle is confronted by a woman whom he had a one night affair with. http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi...
mattacular 14y ago
Why? There is already a pretty thorough understanding of how amphetamines work (as compared to other psychoactive substances) because they've been used by militaries around the world forever. Oh and baseball teams.
the_erd 14y ago
Maybe it's just me, but looking at molecular accumulation in this way doesn't seem that promising. However, there are other problems here... In order to get this kind of research funded in a traditional way, the author would need a much more detailed explanation of the work: specifically, a compelling and well-referenced account of why drug accumulation in mouse brain sections will be helpful in understanding the mechanism of stimulant function. I would also like to see more detailed methodology and an account of how the researcher will responsibly conduct the research (in terms of accounting for hazardous materials and maintaining researcher safety). These are essential components that any PI would need to provide in order to get research funded, because they are necessary to ensure that the researcher can actually conduct the research (has the knowledge and resources), and get it published (missing some of these features would prevent publication in an academic journal). It seems to me that other kinds of analysis, such as molecular state-space based approaches (transcriptomics, metabolomics, etc.) would be much more useful than cellular and sub-cellular accumulation, especially since we have very little knowledge of how spatial tissue, cellular, and sub-cellular neurobiology relate to brain function. Please let me know if I just missed these essential details...
- najmanovich 14y ago
  A lot of the information that you are curious about can be found in Ethan Perlstein's website.
- omnisci 14y ago
  After reading a bit more about this, it seems that they are an established lab with protocols in line for the questions you asked about. The PI's last publication (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034024 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna...) states that they are affiliated with Princeton, so dealing with hazardous materials etc are dealt with Princeton's Environmental health and safety dept. The same applies to animals, radioactive materials etc. It looks like a lot of the details of the experiment are purposely left out of the application as they are looking to appeal to the general public and I think that is a smart thing to do. Putting details into the application would make people's eyes glaze over, so keeping it simple was the correct way to go. From my understanding of their proposal, they are looking to do something quite common in neuroscience research. While I personally haven't done autoradiography, I know people who have and it is a commonly(although not much now) technique that has been used numerous times. To do this as a new lab, without university support would be dangerous, unethical and worrisome, but it seems clear this lab is already established. What they propose seems to be an initial step in a nice project that could lead to something useful. Doing the anatomy (they are basically trying to see where the drug binds within the brain first) and then the molecular techniques makes sense and I wish more labs did stuff like this. As a neuroscientist, I applaud their going outside of the system and I'm happy to see that they will share their data with everyone.
djkn0x 14y ago
I made a $100 contribution (which gets the "talk science over a round of beer" reward) earlier this month. The researcher, Ethan Perlstein, is actually in the Bay Area at the moment... he reached out to me and we're having beers in Palo Alto this afternoon. If you've contributed to the project and are in Palo Alto feel free to join us for a chat / beers in the Science Exchange office (459 Hamilton Ave).
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
wpietri 14y ago
I'm going to kick in. I'm willing to spend some money just to help prove that croudfunded science can work. I understand why some are asking if this is the exactly correct study to do, but I'm not worried. A) I'm willing to trust the guy for $50, and B) once the market is established, competition will drive up study quality.
- sjg007 14y ago
  But Science is crowd funded by taxes, no?
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Some of it is funded by taxes. So are some businesses, and some art. That's all indirect support. Crowdfunding is direct support. Kickstarter has show that can work for businesses and art.
stephenhandley 14y ago
Really like the potential in crowdfunding of science as a way to get more people interested in science. Would be interesting to see rewards tailored for aspiring scientists. This research-topic is probably too controversial to directly associate with high school and younger students but letting them sponsor research projects in exchange for a lab tour / tutorial would be an interesting way to get young people more interested in research.
eperlste 14y ago
Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful discussions! And thanks to Bilal for starting this thread. If anyone would like to discuss our project in greater detail, please email me: eperlste@princeton.edu. P.S. traffic from here to RocketHub resulted in 999 project video plays, which is 40-times the previous day's total, and 3-times greater than the previous daily high. -Ethan

72 points by bmahmood 14y ago

mcs 14y ago

Title is a bit sensationalist don't you think? It's at least under the guise of research.

bmahmood 14y ago
Apologies, but that's the general headline the researcher is using to raise awareness for the initiative. Can read more here: http://mashable.com/2012/10/25/rockethub-meth-lab/ http://mashable.com/2012/10/25/rockethub-meth-lab/
aware2 14y ago
Is it?
- ninetax 14y ago
  The title was "Crowdfund a Meth Lab" but it has been changed.
  - bmahmood 14y ago
    Sorry, not sure why the title changed. Was originally 'Crowd Fund a Meth Lab', as noted in other media outlets.

bmahmood 14y ago

For more information on the researcher's discipline, you can check out this neat video on 'Evolutionary Pharmacology': http://vimeo.com/44687770 http://vimeo.com/44687770

Vuki777 14y ago

Catchy title, great project.

gbeeson 14y ago

Clicked for the title, stayed for the project write up.

cmaxwe 14y ago

They should get Walter White to show them how to cook blue meth.

keefe 14y ago

> How will we spend your money? on lawyers

dmix 14y ago
Amphetiamines are used by the military to keep pilots awake and has a plenty of other legal uses. Methamphetiamine, for example, is prescribed by doctors to treat ADHD in low doses. What exactly is illegal about researching the effects of the drug on the brain? The usual difficultly in studying this stuff is finding funding.
- nowarninglabel 14y ago
  Either you live in a country with much more liberal drug laws than the UK or US, or you are a bit misinformed. These countries have very strict regulations on who can possess quantities of scheduled narcotics, even for research. It took nearly a decade to get regulatory approval to schedule a MDMA research study in the U.S. It's hard to find source on this stuff, but you can see as noted here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22280-a-real-fmri-high-my-ecstasy-brain-scan.html http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22280-a-real-fmri-high...
  - dmix 14y ago
    MDMA is not used clinically like Amphetamines are. You can find amphetamines at pharmacies in the USA under the brands: Adderall, Dexedrine, Dextrostat, Desoxyn, Didrex, ProCentra, and Vyvanse. In addition, the article doesn't say they are specifically going to use Meth, only amphetamine.
    - bennyg 14y ago
      Exactly. Desoxyn is brand name for dextro-methamphetamine, the CNS-active stereo isomer. Levo-methamphetamine is found in those little Vicks nasal inhalers you stuff in each nostril to clear your sinuses.
    - keefe 14y ago

ahillelt 14y ago

That's pretty awesome! Citizen Science here we come!

omnisci 14y ago
Citizen science is one of the goals of my YC application :) It will be here soon.

Vuki777 14y ago

I liked the old title better...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

digitalpacman 14y ago

I don't get it. All of these people on the project would typically have amounts of money for research on whatever they want to do. Why do they need more money? I guess I am missing the point. I've heard of a bunch professors from friends that have huge research funds. They can even give portions of their research grants to students.

polyfractal 14y ago
As an ex-academic type, your statement is both true and false. Some professors have large research grants, and indeed, their grants are what pay the salaries of grad students and post-docs. Other professors (the vast majority) struggle to get appropriate funding. It's a horrible rat race to scrounge up enough money to continue your research. God forbid if you aren't tenured - your job literally depends on how much funding you can bring in (not enough papers = not enough funding = sacked for someone else). That said, $25k is laughably small amount of money in research. At my old lab, I performed an experiment where I was easily blowing $1000 per week. And I was just a single technician in a lab. Hell, I spent more in supplies than I was paid in salary (probably by some multiple).
- cup 14y ago
  I agree about the $25K part. I fail to see how they plan to achieve anything when a single vial of ultra purified drug API or even dendrimer will see you back a few thousand dollars. I mean their intentions are great but I get the feeling they're yet to experience the crushing and pessimistic realities of scientific and especially pharmaceutical/neurobiological research. It's a depressign world for us sometimes. Edit: In review, I would be very interested to read about how they were given permission to experiment on mice. Filling out the paperwork just to get ethical approval alone is a daunting task.
  - omnisci 14y ago
    $25k for a single experiment is possible. I've applied to the national science foundation for a single experiment and my budget (along with funds for me to present the data at a conference (~$1500) was around $12k as we had most of the stuff I needed already. This lab is already established, they just need some extra funds to run this specific experiment (from what I've read). Re: mouse work. I'm assuming they already have the facilities to run these experiments...especially at Princeton. If they don't, I'm sure a neighboring lab has the mice/protocols to run this experiment and they will/can cola berate. They write up an IACUC protocol, go through a few bouts of revisions and they should be able to run the experiment. This would be a simple protocol as they are just injecting mice with the drug, this isn't out of the ordinary by any means.

sophiabatka464 14y ago

Loosies 2012 is a romantic comedy-drama film written and produced by Peter Facinelli, and directed by Michael Corrente. The film stars Peter Facinelli, Jaimie Alexander, Michael Madsen, Joe Pantoliano, William Forsythe, Glenn Ciano, Vincent Gallo and Chad A. Verdi.A young pickpocket in the New York subways, living a fast, lifestyle is confronted by a woman whom he had a one night affair with, she informs him that she is now pregnant with his child, he must now choose between continuing the lifestyle he lead or take responsibility for his actions.A young pickpocket in the New York subways, living a fast, free, lifestyle is confronted by a woman whom he had a one night affair with. http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi... http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movie-free-download http://freemoviesite24.com/2012/10/loosies-2012-720p-hd-movi...

mattacular 14y ago

Why? There is already a pretty thorough understanding of how amphetamines work (as compared to other psychoactive substances) because they've been used by militaries around the world forever. Oh and baseball teams.

the_erd 14y ago

Maybe it's just me, but looking at molecular accumulation in this way doesn't seem that promising. However, there are other problems here... In order to get this kind of research funded in a traditional way, the author would need a much more detailed explanation of the work: specifically, a compelling and well-referenced account of why drug accumulation in mouse brain sections will be helpful in understanding the mechanism of stimulant function. I would also like to see more detailed methodology and an account of how the researcher will responsibly conduct the research (in terms of accounting for hazardous materials and maintaining researcher safety). These are essential components that any PI would need to provide in order to get research funded, because they are necessary to ensure that the researcher can actually conduct the research (has the knowledge and resources), and get it published (missing some of these features would prevent publication in an academic journal). It seems to me that other kinds of analysis, such as molecular state-space based approaches (transcriptomics, metabolomics, etc.) would be much more useful than cellular and sub-cellular accumulation, especially since we have very little knowledge of how spatial tissue, cellular, and sub-cellular neurobiology relate to brain function. Please let me know if I just missed these essential details...

najmanovich 14y ago
A lot of the information that you are curious about can be found in Ethan Perlstein's website.
omnisci 14y ago
After reading a bit more about this, it seems that they are an established lab with protocols in line for the questions you asked about. The PI's last publication (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034024 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna...) states that they are affiliated with Princeton, so dealing with hazardous materials etc are dealt with Princeton's Environmental health and safety dept. The same applies to animals, radioactive materials etc. It looks like a lot of the details of the experiment are purposely left out of the application as they are looking to appeal to the general public and I think that is a smart thing to do. Putting details into the application would make people's eyes glaze over, so keeping it simple was the correct way to go. From my understanding of their proposal, they are looking to do something quite common in neuroscience research. While I personally haven't done autoradiography, I know people who have and it is a commonly(although not much now) technique that has been used numerous times. To do this as a new lab, without university support would be dangerous, unethical and worrisome, but it seems clear this lab is already established. What they propose seems to be an initial step in a nice project that could lead to something useful. Doing the anatomy (they are basically trying to see where the drug binds within the brain first) and then the molecular techniques makes sense and I wish more labs did stuff like this. As a neuroscientist, I applaud their going outside of the system and I'm happy to see that they will share their data with everyone.

djkn0x 14y ago

I made a $100 contribution (which gets the "talk science over a round of beer" reward) earlier this month. The researcher, Ethan Perlstein, is actually in the Bay Area at the moment... he reached out to me and we're having beers in Palo Alto this afternoon. If you've contributed to the project and are in Palo Alto feel free to join us for a chat / beers in the Science Exchange office (459 Hamilton Ave).

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

wpietri 14y ago

I'm going to kick in. I'm willing to spend some money just to help prove that croudfunded science can work. I understand why some are asking if this is the exactly correct study to do, but I'm not worried. A) I'm willing to trust the guy for $50, and B) once the market is established, competition will drive up study quality.

sjg007 14y ago
But Science is crowd funded by taxes, no?
- wpietri 14y ago
  Some of it is funded by taxes. So are some businesses, and some art. That's all indirect support. Crowdfunding is direct support. Kickstarter has show that can work for businesses and art.

stephenhandley 14y ago

Really like the potential in crowdfunding of science as a way to get more people interested in science. Would be interesting to see rewards tailored for aspiring scientists. This research-topic is probably too controversial to directly associate with high school and younger students but letting them sponsor research projects in exchange for a lab tour / tutorial would be an interesting way to get young people more interested in research.

eperlste 14y ago

Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful discussions! And thanks to Bilal for starting this thread. If anyone would like to discuss our project in greater detail, please email me: eperlste@princeton.edu. P.S. traffic from here to RocketHub resulted in 999 project video plays, which is 40-times the previous day's total, and 3-times greater than the previous daily high. -Ethan