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You might be right, but the site is explicit about the Fremont plant being exempted, and opens with the claim that there are facilities grandfathered in.

by tptacek 9mo ago

cogman10 9mo ago
> Tesla's Fremont factory was the former NUMMI plant (GM/Toyota, operating since 1962). It was grandfathered in. When Tesla needed to expand battery production, they built the Gigafactory in Reno, Nevada — not California — because the permitting for battery cell manufacturing was effectively impossible. The Cybertruck factory went to Austin, Texas. His point was that they were grandfathered in for making cars in general. But he flat out lies about making batteries being something grandfathered in. That wasn't a battery manufacturing plant to begin with. And he further lies to say they had to build elsewhere because cell manufacturing was "effectively impossible" because they expanded the factory for cell manufacturing in 2023. [1] [1] https://electrek.co/2023/06/09/tesla-snaps-new-location-fremont-to-expand-4680-battery-cell-production-report/ https://electrek.co/2023/06/09/tesla-snaps-new-location-frem...
- mc32 9mo ago
  I didn't read the text but if you’re referring to the quoted text, it’s not clear from the text that the implication was they were building batteries in _Fremont_ and then wanted to expand or that they were building them elsewhere and wanted to expand and chose Nevada as the expansion site. The sentence is not written with clarity. It’s written as people would speak.
ryandrake 9mo ago
The concept of "grandfathering" rule breakers has always seemed like naked corruption to me. OK, we think this thing is so bad, that we're passing a law to ban it, BUT everyone who was already doing this bad thing can keep doing it forever because... because... because putting an existing company out of business is apparently the worst thing in the world. If our elected officials think something is bad enough to ban outright, then it should go whole hog and actually ban it. Not just prevent upstart competitors to existing legacy industry.
- lokar 9mo ago
  It's not great, but it's political and legal reality.
- colechristensen 9mo ago
  It's not corruption if you lose elections if you don't do it.
- wordpad 9mo ago
  It's not just for politics but fairness. You can't just one day up and decide to make something illegal that others depending on for livelyhood. It's good enough that it limits growth of the banned thing.
  - ryandrake 9mo ago
    Sure you can. It just takes backbone, which is rarely found in the political class. If I, as a voter, voted for a politician who promised to ban dumping mercury in the local river, I don't expect them to say "Oh, but any company already dumping mercury in the river can keep doing so, because we don't want to hurt people's livelihood." That's not what I voted for.
    - MoltenMan 9mo ago
      Ok, but if you are investing capital in some sort of production line or industrialization you are not going to want to do that in an area where you might just lose your entire investment instantly; instead, you're just going to invest it in Texas or China. Of course with more extreme examples like yours you do have to put some cost on the existing companies to get it fixed, but it would be something with a smaller cost like having to dispose of the mercury properly (whereas in this article's examples they just flat out ban these things, which you can't do to existing factories).
      - ryandrake 9mo ago
        For sure there would be a disincentive to "invest" in the area where you might lose the investment. That would be intentional. As a voter, I specifically don't want companies to be making those kinds of "investments" in my region. Go "invest" your dirty industry in China. If California's reputation for harshly regulating these things prevents these kinds of businesses from opening here in the first place, I consider that Working As Intended. We could make that reputation even stronger by not grandfathering things.
avs733 9mo ago
The site is wrong about the Fremont plant being exempted as detailed here: https://dailykanban.com/2016/09/29/docs-reveal-teslas-production-capacity-limited-less-half-500000-vehicle-target/ https://dailykanban.com/2016/09/29/docs-reveal-teslas-produc... (With things like…links to their permit applications, I.e., sources)
- tptacek 9mo ago
  Neat, thanks!
  - avs733 9mo ago
    As just a statement of bias…the guys at that site have a pretty clear distaste for Tesla. They are industry experts and that’s where their analysis comes from, but it’s palpable. I would call it evidence versus politically based but noting it. The difference in bias though is ther snark has citations to primary sources not just wild generic claims.
    - tptacek 9mo ago
      That's helpful context, too. Always happy when anyone goes crate-digging for citations. Thanks!

You might be right, but the site is explicit about the Fremont plant being exempted, and opens with the claim that there are facilities grandfathered in.

by tptacek 9mo ago

You might be right, but the site is explicit about the Fremont plant being exempted, and opens with the claim that there are facilities grandfathered in.

cogman10 9mo ago

> Tesla's Fremont factory was the former NUMMI plant (GM/Toyota, operating since 1962). It was grandfathered in. When Tesla needed to expand battery production, they built the Gigafactory in Reno, Nevada — not California — because the permitting for battery cell manufacturing was effectively impossible. The Cybertruck factory went to Austin, Texas. His point was that they were grandfathered in for making cars in general. But he flat out lies about making batteries being something grandfathered in. That wasn't a battery manufacturing plant to begin with. And he further lies to say they had to build elsewhere because cell manufacturing was "effectively impossible" because they expanded the factory for cell manufacturing in 2023. [1] [1] https://electrek.co/2023/06/09/tesla-snaps-new-location-fremont-to-expand-4680-battery-cell-production-report/ https://electrek.co/2023/06/09/tesla-snaps-new-location-frem...

mc32 9mo ago
I didn't read the text but if you’re referring to the quoted text, it’s not clear from the text that the implication was they were building batteries in _Fremont_ and then wanted to expand or that they were building them elsewhere and wanted to expand and chose Nevada as the expansion site. The sentence is not written with clarity. It’s written as people would speak.

ryandrake 9mo ago

The concept of "grandfathering" rule breakers has always seemed like naked corruption to me. OK, we think this thing is so bad, that we're passing a law to ban it, BUT everyone who was already doing this bad thing can keep doing it forever because... because... because putting an existing company out of business is apparently the worst thing in the world. If our elected officials think something is bad enough to ban outright, then it should go whole hog and actually ban it. Not just prevent upstart competitors to existing legacy industry.

lokar 9mo ago
It's not great, but it's political and legal reality.
colechristensen 9mo ago
It's not corruption if you lose elections if you don't do it.
wordpad 9mo ago
It's not just for politics but fairness. You can't just one day up and decide to make something illegal that others depending on for livelyhood. It's good enough that it limits growth of the banned thing.
- ryandrake 9mo ago
  Sure you can. It just takes backbone, which is rarely found in the political class. If I, as a voter, voted for a politician who promised to ban dumping mercury in the local river, I don't expect them to say "Oh, but any company already dumping mercury in the river can keep doing so, because we don't want to hurt people's livelihood." That's not what I voted for.
  - MoltenMan 9mo ago
    Ok, but if you are investing capital in some sort of production line or industrialization you are not going to want to do that in an area where you might just lose your entire investment instantly; instead, you're just going to invest it in Texas or China. Of course with more extreme examples like yours you do have to put some cost on the existing companies to get it fixed, but it would be something with a smaller cost like having to dispose of the mercury properly (whereas in this article's examples they just flat out ban these things, which you can't do to existing factories).
    - ryandrake 9mo ago
      For sure there would be a disincentive to "invest" in the area where you might lose the investment. That would be intentional. As a voter, I specifically don't want companies to be making those kinds of "investments" in my region. Go "invest" your dirty industry in China. If California's reputation for harshly regulating these things prevents these kinds of businesses from opening here in the first place, I consider that Working As Intended. We could make that reputation even stronger by not grandfathering things.

avs733 9mo ago

The site is wrong about the Fremont plant being exempted as detailed here: https://dailykanban.com/2016/09/29/docs-reveal-teslas-production-capacity-limited-less-half-500000-vehicle-target/ https://dailykanban.com/2016/09/29/docs-reveal-teslas-produc... (With things like…links to their permit applications, I.e., sources)

tptacek 9mo ago
Neat, thanks!
- avs733 9mo ago
  As just a statement of bias…the guys at that site have a pretty clear distaste for Tesla. They are industry experts and that’s where their analysis comes from, but it’s palpable. I would call it evidence versus politically based but noting it. The difference in bias though is ther snark has citations to primary sources not just wild generic claims.
  - tptacek 9mo ago
    That's helpful context, too. Always happy when anyone goes crate-digging for citations. Thanks!