3 ms·

In general public benefit corporations and non-profits should have a very modest salary cap for everybody involved and specific public-benefit legally binding m

by coldtea 8mo ago

In general public benefit corporations and non-profits should have a very modest salary cap for everybody involved and specific public-benefit legally binding mission statements. Anybody involved should also be prohibited from starting a private company using their IP and catering to the same domain for 5-10 years after they leave. Non-profits where the CEO makes millions or billions are a joke. And if e.g. your mission is to build an open browser, being paid by a for-profit to change its behavior (e.g. make theirs the default search engine) should be prohibited too.

drzaiusx11 8mo ago
If we're speaking in generalities of corporations in this space, it's all a joke now, at least from my vantage point. I just don't find it very funny.
jkestner 8mo ago
It’s not the CEO’s fault - they had to take all that money to keep their org a non-profit. B corps are like recycling programs, a nice logo.
- torginus 8mo ago
  Don't they get tax breaks and more lax operating requirements? I don't think this is just an image thing.
  - mcherm 8mo ago
    No, under US law charities and non-profits are typically eligible for some kinds of tax benefits but public benefit corporations are not.
- shafyy 8mo ago
  Are you saying that recycling is a scam?
  - 8organicbits 8mo ago
    Many recycling programs don't actually recycle. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/critics-call-out-plastics-industry-over-fraud-of-plastic-recycling/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/critics-call-out-plastics-indus...
  - coldtea 8mo ago
    Aside from a few select product categories, recycling IS a scam. E.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/17/plastic-recycling-myth-what-really-happens-your-rubbish https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/17/plastic-... Recycling mostly means "sent to landfills in the third world": https://earth.org/waste-colonialism-a-brief-history-of-dumping-rich-countries-trash-in-the-global-south/ https://earth.org/waste-colonialism-a-brief-history-of-dumpi... https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2023/03/rich-countries-nations-waste-plastic-exports-chemical-contamination/ https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2023/03/rich-countri... https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/opinion/trash-recycling-global-waste-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/opinion/trash-recycling-g...
    - shafyy 8mo ago
      It really depends on the type of material and country. Many monoplastics and almost all cardboard can be recycled and is (e.g. in Germany and other European countries). > Recycling mostly means "sent to landfills in the third world" This is less true now that China banned plastic waste imports. I agree though that the average person might overestimate how much of their waste can be recycled. However, many materials are recycled and then re-used, so it's not like the whole concept is a scam.
  - jkestner 8mo ago
    Mostly, yeah. "Yet the industry spent millions telling people to recycle, because, as one former top industry insider told NPR, selling recycling sold plastic, even if it wasn't true." https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-the-public-into-believing-plastic-would-be-recycled https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-...
abigail95 8mo ago
What's the salary cap for hiring a team to build a frontier model? These kind of rules will make PBCs weaker not stronger.
- coldtea 8mo ago
  >for hiring a team to build a frontier model? These kind of rules will make PBCs weaker not stronger Weaker is fine if those working there are actually true to the mission for the mission, are not for the profit. Same with FOSS really, e.g. I'd rather have a weaker Linux that's an actual comminity project run by volunteers, than a stronger Linux that's just corporate agendas, corporate hires with an open license on top.
ACCount37 8mo ago
"A very modest salary cap" works if your mission is planting trees. Not so much if what you're building is frontier AI systems.
- the_bear 8mo ago
  I think that's the point though. The AI companies can't compete without hiring very talented employees and raising lots of money from investors. Neither the employees nor investors would participate if there weren't the potential for making mountains of money. So these AI companies fundamentally can't be non-profits or true B-corps (I realize that's a vague term, but the it certainly means not doing whatever it takes to make as much money as possible), and they shouldn't pretend they are.
  - ACCount37 8mo ago
    To me, it feels like saying "you can't be a public benefit corporation unless all the labor involved in delivering that public benefit is cheap". Which just doesn't seem like it should be true? Sure, some "public benefit" missions could scale sideways and employ a lot of cheap labor, not suffering from a salary cap at all. But other missions would require rare high end high performance high salary specialists who are in demand - and thus expensive. You can't rely on being able to source enough altruists that will put up with being paid half their market worth for the sake of the mission.
    - coldtea 8mo ago
      >But other missions would require rare high end high performance high salary specialists who are in demand - and thus expensive. You can't rely on being able to source enough altruists that will put up with being paid half their market worth for the sake of the mission.' That's exactly what a non-profit should be able to rely on. And not just "half their market worth", but even many times less. Else we can just say "we can't really have non-profits, because everybody is a greedy pig who doesn't care about public benefit enough to make a sacrifice of profits - but still a perfectly livable salary" - and be done with it.
OkayPhysicist 8mo ago
You're overthinking this. Just give the beneficiaries of the corporation (which in the context of a "public" benefit corporation is the public) the grounds to sue if the company reneges on their mission, the same way shareholders can sue if a company fails to act in their interest.

by coldtea 8mo ago

drzaiusx11 8mo ago

If we're speaking in generalities of corporations in this space, it's all a joke now, at least from my vantage point. I just don't find it very funny.

jkestner 8mo ago

It’s not the CEO’s fault - they had to take all that money to keep their org a non-profit. B corps are like recycling programs, a nice logo.

torginus 8mo ago
Don't they get tax breaks and more lax operating requirements? I don't think this is just an image thing.
- mcherm 8mo ago
  No, under US law charities and non-profits are typically eligible for some kinds of tax benefits but public benefit corporations are not.
shafyy 8mo ago
Are you saying that recycling is a scam?
- 8organicbits 8mo ago
  Many recycling programs don't actually recycle. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/critics-call-out-plastics-industry-over-fraud-of-plastic-recycling/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/critics-call-out-plastics-indus...
- coldtea 8mo ago
  Aside from a few select product categories, recycling IS a scam. E.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/17/plastic-recycling-myth-what-really-happens-your-rubbish https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/17/plastic-... Recycling mostly means "sent to landfills in the third world": https://earth.org/waste-colonialism-a-brief-history-of-dumping-rich-countries-trash-in-the-global-south/ https://earth.org/waste-colonialism-a-brief-history-of-dumpi... https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2023/03/rich-countries-nations-waste-plastic-exports-chemical-contamination/ https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2023/03/rich-countri... https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/opinion/trash-recycling-global-waste-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/opinion/trash-recycling-g...
  - shafyy 8mo ago
    It really depends on the type of material and country. Many monoplastics and almost all cardboard can be recycled and is (e.g. in Germany and other European countries). > Recycling mostly means "sent to landfills in the third world" This is less true now that China banned plastic waste imports. I agree though that the average person might overestimate how much of their waste can be recycled. However, many materials are recycled and then re-used, so it's not like the whole concept is a scam.
- jkestner 8mo ago
  Mostly, yeah. "Yet the industry spent millions telling people to recycle, because, as one former top industry insider told NPR, selling recycling sold plastic, even if it wasn't true." https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-the-public-into-believing-plastic-would-be-recycled https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-...

abigail95 8mo ago

What's the salary cap for hiring a team to build a frontier model? These kind of rules will make PBCs weaker not stronger.

coldtea 8mo ago
>for hiring a team to build a frontier model? These kind of rules will make PBCs weaker not stronger Weaker is fine if those working there are actually true to the mission for the mission, are not for the profit. Same with FOSS really, e.g. I'd rather have a weaker Linux that's an actual comminity project run by volunteers, than a stronger Linux that's just corporate agendas, corporate hires with an open license on top.

ACCount37 8mo ago

"A very modest salary cap" works if your mission is planting trees. Not so much if what you're building is frontier AI systems.

the_bear 8mo ago
I think that's the point though. The AI companies can't compete without hiring very talented employees and raising lots of money from investors. Neither the employees nor investors would participate if there weren't the potential for making mountains of money. So these AI companies fundamentally can't be non-profits or true B-corps (I realize that's a vague term, but the it certainly means not doing whatever it takes to make as much money as possible), and they shouldn't pretend they are.
- ACCount37 8mo ago
  To me, it feels like saying "you can't be a public benefit corporation unless all the labor involved in delivering that public benefit is cheap". Which just doesn't seem like it should be true? Sure, some "public benefit" missions could scale sideways and employ a lot of cheap labor, not suffering from a salary cap at all. But other missions would require rare high end high performance high salary specialists who are in demand - and thus expensive. You can't rely on being able to source enough altruists that will put up with being paid half their market worth for the sake of the mission.
  - coldtea 8mo ago
    >But other missions would require rare high end high performance high salary specialists who are in demand - and thus expensive. You can't rely on being able to source enough altruists that will put up with being paid half their market worth for the sake of the mission.' That's exactly what a non-profit should be able to rely on. And not just "half their market worth", but even many times less. Else we can just say "we can't really have non-profits, because everybody is a greedy pig who doesn't care about public benefit enough to make a sacrifice of profits - but still a perfectly livable salary" - and be done with it.

OkayPhysicist 8mo ago

You're overthinking this. Just give the beneficiaries of the corporation (which in the context of a "public" benefit corporation is the public) the grounds to sue if the company reneges on their mission, the same way shareholders can sue if a company fails to act in their interest.