12 ms·

So hard to believe all the skiers and snowboarders were putting PFAS as wax just until couple years ago. Also in Germany, you can buy "permanent baking paper" t

by gryzzly 8mo ago

So hard to believe all the skiers and snowboarders were putting PFAS as wax just until couple years ago. Also in Germany, you can buy "permanent baking paper" that is pure PTFE without a problem, which is insane to me.

cannonpr 8mo ago
The problem is most data shows PTFE as having significant pyrolysis after 400-500c in reality it starts to break down enough to poison you around 260c. In general though under those temperatures it’s not particularly problematic, ofcourse ideally we should just never make the stuff to begin with as it’s manufacture and its eventual breakdown are both horrible for everyone.
ifwinterco 8mo ago
Teflon pans are still legal in every country in the world and used in every restaurant and food preparation industry. It's basically impossible to avoid this stuff unless you cook all of your meals from scratch and never eat out anywhere
- tonyedgecombe 8mo ago
  > It's basically impossible to avoid this stuff unless you cook all of your meals from scratch and never eat out anywhere Which is pretty much what you should do if you are concerned about your health at all.
  - pibaker 8mo ago
    You can absolutely care about your health and still enjoy some unhealthy things every once in a while, be it dinning out, a grill party, a glass of wine or a motorcycle ride. Thinking that you must optimize every single bit of your health 100% of the time or you do not care about your health at all is just pathological black and white thinking. What a miserable way to spend the mere decades you have on this planet.
    - tonyedgecombe 8mo ago
      >You can absolutely care about your health and still enjoy some unhealthy things every once in a while, be it dinning out, a grill party, a glass of wine or a motorcycle ride. Isn't this the message we get from the food companies marketing departments every day. Sure you can eat that thousand calorie desert once in a while as part of a healthy diet. Then before you know it we are in an obesity epidemic and what is genuinely healthy looks extreme to the majority.
      - pibaker 8mo ago
        There is food advertisements everywhere in Japan and yet no one is fat. Maybe the real reason Americans are fat is instead of taking responsibility of their own health they prefer to blame it on le marketing departments instead. Shrug.
    - ifwinterco 8mo ago
      Yeah I definitely agree with this. Also at the end of the day it is ultimately largely down to fate/probability/deity of your choice. You have control over some parameters, but you're just tweaking inputs to a huge RNG that is spinning 24/7 365 days a year and there's always a chance your numbers will come up
      - tonyedgecombe 7mo ago
        We are all going to die eventually but there is a good reason high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes and coronary artery disease are called lifestyle diseases.
- protonbob 8mo ago
  You don’t have to completely avoid it, reducing exposure is helpful. It’s not hard to get rid of it in your own home where you probably spend most of your time and eat most of your meals.
- SkyeCA 8mo ago
  Teflon is so useful when cooking that I'm going to use it until the moment it gets banned regardless of health impacts.
  - asimovfan 8mo ago
    If you mean just a skillet / frying pan, i found that a cast iron pan is much better (for non stick), have been using a €10 one for about three years now. You can ignore all warnings about keeping it oiled etc. They also have glass air fryers now (borosilicate glass, quite durable). You can scrub both with a steel sponge.
  - hyperbovine 8mo ago
    Cooking with it at normal fry pan temperatures (350-400f) is safe, this has been repeatedly confirmed in experiments, some not even funded by DuPont. Don’t do crazy things like really high temp searing and don’t use metal utensils that cause the coating to flake off. Also if you’re really concerned ceramic nonstick + oil has come a long way. And I should add the the most nonstick pan I own is actually a properly seasoned carbon steel wok, yes it’s really possible if you know what you’re doing.
    - chadpaulson 8mo ago
      I've heard good things about carbon steel. Particularly, nitrided carbon steel. The pans are treated to be non-stick and are safe. It's what Alton Brown, the host of Food Network's Good Eats who also just launched a new cooking show on YouTube, uses.
      - t1234s 8mo ago
        Alton Brown had the best cooking show that ever existed. It was maximal knowledge with minimal BS (compared to most other TV shows in this space).
        globular-toast 8mo ago
        True but it owes a strong debt to Harold McGee's On Food and Cooking.
- bilekas 8mo ago
  PFOA was used previously, but now it's changed to PTFE, this is supposedly less harmful, but its considered perfectly fine (afaik) as long as the temperatures dont exceed 260°C.. Which at that stage you're probably using the wrong tool.. Maybe some Iron cast skillet or something ?
  - mrob 8mo ago
    PFOA is a surfactant that was previously used for emulsion polymerization of PTFE. It's not found in the finished product. It's since been replaced with other less well studied PFAS surfactants that might be less dangerous or might not, which seems to me an example of bad regulation. It would make more sense to regulate disposal of PFOA, which can be done safely with processes such as supercritical water oxidation. PTFE itself is about as inert as you can get, assuming it's not overheated. If you use PTFE cookwear, I recommend getting an IR thermometer so you can learn how your cooking setup responds and control the temperature properly.
- dust42 8mo ago
  Whenever you see a Youtube video from a restaurant kitchen you can almost be sure to see some pans where the teflon has been scrubbed down to the pure metal. Probably not that healthy...
  - mrob 8mo ago
    PTFE is extremely chemically inert. There's possibly some risk from ultra-fine particulates that could be absorbed by the body, but compared to all the other sources of particulate exposure I don't think it's a major problem. I'm more concerned by thermal decomposition, which forms all kinds of mystery chemicals of unknown risk profile. Restaurants love to sear food and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them do it on PTFE cookwear.
  - stuff4ben 8mo ago
    its highly unlikely any restaurant uses teflon coated pans. Most use carbon steel or stainless. Teflon just won't hold up in daily use at a restaurant.
    - red-iron-pine 8mo ago
      cost is also gonna be a factor. you can get bulk stainless pans in bulk at reasonable prices and they'll last forever restaurants also love high-heat and that's a no-no for teflon
- Yizahi 8mo ago
  And it's amazing. I'd rather eat some inert and safe teflon flakes than carcinogens in the charred or burned food.
- array_key_first 8mo ago
  My understanding is that Teflon is perfectly safe. The concern comes from by-products of Teflon manufacturing which leech into water. The Teflon molocules are really long, they can't get stuck anywhere and your body just removes them through your urine.
simonsarris 8mo ago
I mean, did you know most dental floss has PFAS? You have to go out of your way to get PFAS free Do you know what "countertop sealer" is made of? It's PFAS! Lots and lots of people rub PFAS on their food surfaces on purpose! The stuff is everywhere even if you think you are avoiding it.
- ChoGGi 8mo ago
  I use a water flosser, and walrus oil for my cutting board.

by gryzzly 8mo ago

cannonpr 8mo ago

The problem is most data shows PTFE as having significant pyrolysis after 400-500c in reality it starts to break down enough to poison you around 260c. In general though under those temperatures it’s not particularly problematic, ofcourse ideally we should just never make the stuff to begin with as it’s manufacture and its eventual breakdown are both horrible for everyone.

ifwinterco 8mo ago

Teflon pans are still legal in every country in the world and used in every restaurant and food preparation industry. It's basically impossible to avoid this stuff unless you cook all of your meals from scratch and never eat out anywhere

tonyedgecombe 8mo ago
> It's basically impossible to avoid this stuff unless you cook all of your meals from scratch and never eat out anywhere Which is pretty much what you should do if you are concerned about your health at all.
- pibaker 8mo ago
  You can absolutely care about your health and still enjoy some unhealthy things every once in a while, be it dinning out, a grill party, a glass of wine or a motorcycle ride. Thinking that you must optimize every single bit of your health 100% of the time or you do not care about your health at all is just pathological black and white thinking. What a miserable way to spend the mere decades you have on this planet.
  - tonyedgecombe 8mo ago
    >You can absolutely care about your health and still enjoy some unhealthy things every once in a while, be it dinning out, a grill party, a glass of wine or a motorcycle ride. Isn't this the message we get from the food companies marketing departments every day. Sure you can eat that thousand calorie desert once in a while as part of a healthy diet. Then before you know it we are in an obesity epidemic and what is genuinely healthy looks extreme to the majority.
    - pibaker 8mo ago
      There is food advertisements everywhere in Japan and yet no one is fat. Maybe the real reason Americans are fat is instead of taking responsibility of their own health they prefer to blame it on le marketing departments instead. Shrug.
  - ifwinterco 8mo ago
    Yeah I definitely agree with this. Also at the end of the day it is ultimately largely down to fate/probability/deity of your choice. You have control over some parameters, but you're just tweaking inputs to a huge RNG that is spinning 24/7 365 days a year and there's always a chance your numbers will come up
    - tonyedgecombe 7mo ago
      We are all going to die eventually but there is a good reason high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes and coronary artery disease are called lifestyle diseases.
protonbob 8mo ago
You don’t have to completely avoid it, reducing exposure is helpful. It’s not hard to get rid of it in your own home where you probably spend most of your time and eat most of your meals.
SkyeCA 8mo ago
Teflon is so useful when cooking that I'm going to use it until the moment it gets banned regardless of health impacts.
- asimovfan 8mo ago
  If you mean just a skillet / frying pan, i found that a cast iron pan is much better (for non stick), have been using a €10 one for about three years now. You can ignore all warnings about keeping it oiled etc. They also have glass air fryers now (borosilicate glass, quite durable). You can scrub both with a steel sponge.
- hyperbovine 8mo ago
  Cooking with it at normal fry pan temperatures (350-400f) is safe, this has been repeatedly confirmed in experiments, some not even funded by DuPont. Don’t do crazy things like really high temp searing and don’t use metal utensils that cause the coating to flake off. Also if you’re really concerned ceramic nonstick + oil has come a long way. And I should add the the most nonstick pan I own is actually a properly seasoned carbon steel wok, yes it’s really possible if you know what you’re doing.
  - chadpaulson 8mo ago
    I've heard good things about carbon steel. Particularly, nitrided carbon steel. The pans are treated to be non-stick and are safe. It's what Alton Brown, the host of Food Network's Good Eats who also just launched a new cooking show on YouTube, uses.
    - t1234s 8mo ago
      Alton Brown had the best cooking show that ever existed. It was maximal knowledge with minimal BS (compared to most other TV shows in this space).
      - globular-toast 8mo ago
        True but it owes a strong debt to Harold McGee's On Food and Cooking.
bilekas 8mo ago
PFOA was used previously, but now it's changed to PTFE, this is supposedly less harmful, but its considered perfectly fine (afaik) as long as the temperatures dont exceed 260°C.. Which at that stage you're probably using the wrong tool.. Maybe some Iron cast skillet or something ?
- mrob 8mo ago
  PFOA is a surfactant that was previously used for emulsion polymerization of PTFE. It's not found in the finished product. It's since been replaced with other less well studied PFAS surfactants that might be less dangerous or might not, which seems to me an example of bad regulation. It would make more sense to regulate disposal of PFOA, which can be done safely with processes such as supercritical water oxidation. PTFE itself is about as inert as you can get, assuming it's not overheated. If you use PTFE cookwear, I recommend getting an IR thermometer so you can learn how your cooking setup responds and control the temperature properly.
dust42 8mo ago
Whenever you see a Youtube video from a restaurant kitchen you can almost be sure to see some pans where the teflon has been scrubbed down to the pure metal. Probably not that healthy...
- mrob 8mo ago
  PTFE is extremely chemically inert. There's possibly some risk from ultra-fine particulates that could be absorbed by the body, but compared to all the other sources of particulate exposure I don't think it's a major problem. I'm more concerned by thermal decomposition, which forms all kinds of mystery chemicals of unknown risk profile. Restaurants love to sear food and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them do it on PTFE cookwear.
- stuff4ben 8mo ago
  its highly unlikely any restaurant uses teflon coated pans. Most use carbon steel or stainless. Teflon just won't hold up in daily use at a restaurant.
  - red-iron-pine 8mo ago
    cost is also gonna be a factor. you can get bulk stainless pans in bulk at reasonable prices and they'll last forever restaurants also love high-heat and that's a no-no for teflon
Yizahi 8mo ago
And it's amazing. I'd rather eat some inert and safe teflon flakes than carcinogens in the charred or burned food.
array_key_first 8mo ago
My understanding is that Teflon is perfectly safe. The concern comes from by-products of Teflon manufacturing which leech into water. The Teflon molocules are really long, they can't get stuck anywhere and your body just removes them through your urine.

simonsarris 8mo ago

I mean, did you know most dental floss has PFAS? You have to go out of your way to get PFAS free Do you know what "countertop sealer" is made of? It's PFAS! Lots and lots of people rub PFAS on their food surfaces on purpose! The stuff is everywhere even if you think you are avoiding it.

ChoGGi 8mo ago
I use a water flosser, and walrus oil for my cutting board.