6 ms·

gov.uk has a tendancy to treat everyone like a 5 year old. It's often 2-4 clicks to get to the /actual/ thing you want, with many long pages of "ok here's what

by gib444 8mo ago

gov.uk has a tendancy to treat everyone like a 5 year old. It's often 2-4 clicks to get to the /actual/ thing you want, with many long pages of "ok here's what this thing is. Here's what will happen next". (Even that 'direct link' has a whole page of "ok here's what you need - click to continue" !) So this isn't really an exception, and is to be expected if you're familiar with govuk I think it needs to be scaled back, but with a party in power famous for paternalism, and a long history of their interaction design in this direction, I don't see it happening

smikhanov 8mo ago
gov.uk has a tendancy to treat everyone like a 5 year old Which is not a bug, but a feature of the gov.uk website, and it's the best and the most important one. 89 year old you would absolutely appreciate it when you'd need to renew your passport via gov.uk.
- lukecarr 8mo ago
  No, the GDS should definitely replace all services on gov.uk to be only accessible via MCP. "Claude, I've logged into PayPal via oAuth, now renew my passport" /s
  - dgxyz 8mo ago
    Hahaha that’s hilarious. I bet someone tried to sell them that already.
- gib444 8mo ago
  It's a bug when you're neither 5 nor 89 or have used it 10 times before... Look, I know it's a hard problem, and GDS have a lot of talented, smart people. I appreciate making something work for both an 18 year old and an 89 year old is a hard requiement. IMHO there is nothing wrong with having those help docs easily available so you can read at your leisure, rather than being 'forced' to wade through it each time Perhaps we can agree to disagree that it's not a 'bug' based on the Government's general approach to how it treats its citizens and what it deems as a requirement (as compared to eg the Netherlands/Germany which is a bit more 'it's not our fault you're stupid', 'go read the docs!')
  - sevg 8mo ago
    It’s important to be empathetic here to how difficult these things can be for less tech literate people. Adding more guidance and nudges doesn’t prevent capable users from succeeding, it just annoys them. But it means the lowest common denominators have a higher chance to succeed, which is much more valuable than level of annoyance. And that’s pretty the point of accessibility.
- oncallthrow 8mo ago
  > 89 year old you would absolutely appreciate it Not just 89 year old you. Also, you on a bad day when you were ill/had 5 hours of sleep/were distracted. Interacting with other governments feels like a minefield designed to catch you out, in comparison.
  - gib444 8mo ago
    Funny you say that, I actually just did a company tax return and confirmation statement a couple of days in the midst of bad COVID (2 hours sleep per night) and I was still annoyed about the multi-step process: 1) gov.uk, search for 'file confirmation statement' 2) Despite there being a sole autocomplete result and clicking on it, taken to the search results page 3) Click the first result. Turns out it's the guidance page 4) Go back, click the second result. We're getting warmer 5) Click "Start Now" 6) Get redirected to the 'Sign in to WebFiling' landing page. You can't actually sign on on this page. 7) Click 'Continue' 8) Another landing/explainer page! ("We're taking you to GOV.UK One Login to sign in to this service") 9) Click 'Go to GOV.UK One Login' 10) You think we're done yet? Think again. Another landing page! 11) Click "Sign in" 12) Think they'd let you just enter an email and password on one page? Nope! Enter email 13) Click Continue 14) Enter password Finally... No idea how anyone who doesn't work for GDS can justify this. It's mad
__jonas 8mo ago
I can’t figure out what you’re complaining about, why would it be a bad thing that it explains everything super clearly? I’ve had only good experiences with gov.uk while I was living there, It’s significantly better than my home country’s digital infrastructure.
- gib444 8mo ago
  Imagine you go into a shop to buy a newspaper every day. And every day, the shop owner explains to you what a newspaper is, what it usually contains, how much it costs, and how to read it Is that excellent interaction design and good customer service? (edit: not a rhetorical question fwiw)
  - esskay 8mo ago
    Do you not get how awful of an analogy that is? You're implying you cant move forward until that explanation process is done. Last I checked you've got a finger and scroll wheel at your disposal.
    - gib444 8mo ago
      Analogies aren't perfect by definition (it doesn't imply that, btw, you're reaching). Anyway, it's a weak reply to attack the analogy rather than the thought behind it. I notice you're not the person I asked btw. No need to start a vendetta just because I have a different opinion about one aspect of gov.uk. That's a bad look, for you.
      - esskay 8mo ago
        Ah apologies, I didn't realise there was an unwritten rule that replying to posts on a discussion forum wasn't allowed...
        deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
        8mo ago
robbbbbbbbbbbb 8mo ago
This feels super unfair to the gov.uk experience design which for me stands out head and shoulders above any other web workflow delivered by the public sector I've ever come across. Pages are snappy, terse, consistent, clear and unsurprising. I agree this specific example feels a bit dark-patterny and occasionally stuff like self-assesment can have more steps than necessary, but overall it's really high quality. In comparison the process for getting a DUNS number felt like going through some kind of a psychological experiment. Finally, this: > a party in power famous for paternalism is just enclowning yourself with a partisan and non-sequitous point.
- gib444 8mo ago
  You're trying to paint me as someone who hates the whole gov.uk experience - which is not what I wrote or implied I'm allowed to be frustrated and to criticise it - I'm a tax-paying British citizen. > is just enclowning yourself with a partisan and non-sequitous point. It's sequitous and highly relevant as GDS is part of the Government. Your comment just reads like a reflexive defensive reply by someone who can't stand any criticism of something they personally like.
  - robbbbbbbbbbbb 8mo ago
    It's not sequitous mate. The idea that a Labour Secretary of State would be phoning up the Cabinet Office screaming down the phone at them about interaction design on the website while a Tory one would just have their feet up is ludicrous and you know it.
- smikhanov 8mo ago
  Pages are snappy, terse, consistent, clear and unsurprising This is a fantastic summary. Also, when you switch to gov.uk after using literally any other modern website, it's always surprising how fast it is.
michh 8mo ago
Congratulations, you're a lot smarter than the average person. I understand this is sometimes a bit annoying, but at the end of the day it's probably something to be grateful for.
NicuCalcea 8mo ago
They call it content design [1] and I love it! I've lived in a few countries, and gov.uk is by far the easiest way to interact with the government that I've experienced. As an immigrant, it can be confusing to navigate a new country's legal idiosyncrasies, so I appreciate them dumbing it down for me. Although, I'll have to admit it's been getting worse lately. My latest annoyance is the "GOV.UK One Login" they introduced in addition to the existing "Government Gateway" login. I never know which I'm supposed to use on which page, and some pages accept either. Not great UX. 1: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design
oncallthrow 8mo ago
I’m sorry but this is an awful take. gov.uk’s design is excellent, probably the best government interface in the world. My friends from other European countries are literally shocked at how easy things are to do (often, tasks that in their countries would require going to some bureaucrat _in person_ and waiting hours, sometimes multiple times).
esskay 8mo ago
Awful take. Other than the broken mess that is One Login the whole gov.uk setup is a breath of fresh air compared to most countries online government services. It's incredibly hard to cater for a wide audience, and they do it pretty damn well. Just because you fit in the "I know what I'm doing category" it doesn't mean they should strip away all the bits that help those not in that category.

by gib444 8mo ago

smikhanov 8mo ago

gov.uk has a tendancy to treat everyone like a 5 year old Which is not a bug, but a feature of the gov.uk website, and it's the best and the most important one. 89 year old you would absolutely appreciate it when you'd need to renew your passport via gov.uk.

lukecarr 8mo ago
No, the GDS should definitely replace all services on gov.uk to be only accessible via MCP. "Claude, I've logged into PayPal via oAuth, now renew my passport" /s
- dgxyz 8mo ago
  Hahaha that’s hilarious. I bet someone tried to sell them that already.
gib444 8mo ago
It's a bug when you're neither 5 nor 89 or have used it 10 times before... Look, I know it's a hard problem, and GDS have a lot of talented, smart people. I appreciate making something work for both an 18 year old and an 89 year old is a hard requiement. IMHO there is nothing wrong with having those help docs easily available so you can read at your leisure, rather than being 'forced' to wade through it each time Perhaps we can agree to disagree that it's not a 'bug' based on the Government's general approach to how it treats its citizens and what it deems as a requirement (as compared to eg the Netherlands/Germany which is a bit more 'it's not our fault you're stupid', 'go read the docs!')
- sevg 8mo ago
  It’s important to be empathetic here to how difficult these things can be for less tech literate people. Adding more guidance and nudges doesn’t prevent capable users from succeeding, it just annoys them. But it means the lowest common denominators have a higher chance to succeed, which is much more valuable than level of annoyance. And that’s pretty the point of accessibility.
oncallthrow 8mo ago
> 89 year old you would absolutely appreciate it Not just 89 year old you. Also, you on a bad day when you were ill/had 5 hours of sleep/were distracted. Interacting with other governments feels like a minefield designed to catch you out, in comparison.
- gib444 8mo ago
  Funny you say that, I actually just did a company tax return and confirmation statement a couple of days in the midst of bad COVID (2 hours sleep per night) and I was still annoyed about the multi-step process: 1) gov.uk, search for 'file confirmation statement' 2) Despite there being a sole autocomplete result and clicking on it, taken to the search results page 3) Click the first result. Turns out it's the guidance page 4) Go back, click the second result. We're getting warmer 5) Click "Start Now" 6) Get redirected to the 'Sign in to WebFiling' landing page. You can't actually sign on on this page. 7) Click 'Continue' 8) Another landing/explainer page! ("We're taking you to GOV.UK One Login to sign in to this service") 9) Click 'Go to GOV.UK One Login' 10) You think we're done yet? Think again. Another landing page! 11) Click "Sign in" 12) Think they'd let you just enter an email and password on one page? Nope! Enter email 13) Click Continue 14) Enter password Finally... No idea how anyone who doesn't work for GDS can justify this. It's mad

__jonas 8mo ago

I can’t figure out what you’re complaining about, why would it be a bad thing that it explains everything super clearly? I’ve had only good experiences with gov.uk while I was living there, It’s significantly better than my home country’s digital infrastructure.

gib444 8mo ago
Imagine you go into a shop to buy a newspaper every day. And every day, the shop owner explains to you what a newspaper is, what it usually contains, how much it costs, and how to read it Is that excellent interaction design and good customer service? (edit: not a rhetorical question fwiw)
- esskay 8mo ago
  Do you not get how awful of an analogy that is? You're implying you cant move forward until that explanation process is done. Last I checked you've got a finger and scroll wheel at your disposal.
  - gib444 8mo ago
    Analogies aren't perfect by definition (it doesn't imply that, btw, you're reaching). Anyway, it's a weak reply to attack the analogy rather than the thought behind it. I notice you're not the person I asked btw. No need to start a vendetta just because I have a different opinion about one aspect of gov.uk. That's a bad look, for you.
    - esskay 8mo ago
      Ah apologies, I didn't realise there was an unwritten rule that replying to posts on a discussion forum wasn't allowed...
      - deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
      - 8mo ago

robbbbbbbbbbbb 8mo ago

This feels super unfair to the gov.uk experience design which for me stands out head and shoulders above any other web workflow delivered by the public sector I've ever come across. Pages are snappy, terse, consistent, clear and unsurprising. I agree this specific example feels a bit dark-patterny and occasionally stuff like self-assesment can have more steps than necessary, but overall it's really high quality. In comparison the process for getting a DUNS number felt like going through some kind of a psychological experiment. Finally, this: > a party in power famous for paternalism is just enclowning yourself with a partisan and non-sequitous point.

gib444 8mo ago
You're trying to paint me as someone who hates the whole gov.uk experience - which is not what I wrote or implied I'm allowed to be frustrated and to criticise it - I'm a tax-paying British citizen. > is just enclowning yourself with a partisan and non-sequitous point. It's sequitous and highly relevant as GDS is part of the Government. Your comment just reads like a reflexive defensive reply by someone who can't stand any criticism of something they personally like.
- robbbbbbbbbbbb 8mo ago
  It's not sequitous mate. The idea that a Labour Secretary of State would be phoning up the Cabinet Office screaming down the phone at them about interaction design on the website while a Tory one would just have their feet up is ludicrous and you know it.
smikhanov 8mo ago
Pages are snappy, terse, consistent, clear and unsurprising This is a fantastic summary. Also, when you switch to gov.uk after using literally any other modern website, it's always surprising how fast it is.

michh 8mo ago

Congratulations, you're a lot smarter than the average person. I understand this is sometimes a bit annoying, but at the end of the day it's probably something to be grateful for.

NicuCalcea 8mo ago

They call it content design [1] and I love it! I've lived in a few countries, and gov.uk is by far the easiest way to interact with the government that I've experienced. As an immigrant, it can be confusing to navigate a new country's legal idiosyncrasies, so I appreciate them dumbing it down for me. Although, I'll have to admit it's been getting worse lately. My latest annoyance is the "GOV.UK One Login" they introduced in addition to the existing "Government Gateway" login. I never know which I'm supposed to use on which page, and some pages accept either. Not great UX. 1: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design

oncallthrow 8mo ago

I’m sorry but this is an awful take. gov.uk’s design is excellent, probably the best government interface in the world. My friends from other European countries are literally shocked at how easy things are to do (often, tasks that in their countries would require going to some bureaucrat _in person_ and waiting hours, sometimes multiple times).

esskay 8mo ago

Awful take. Other than the broken mess that is One Login the whole gov.uk setup is a breath of fresh air compared to most countries online government services. It's incredibly hard to cater for a wide audience, and they do it pretty damn well. Just because you fit in the "I know what I'm doing category" it doesn't mean they should strip away all the bits that help those not in that category.