5 ms·

I strongly believe that if you set aside genre preferences the solid body electric guitar coupled to a tube amplifier is objectively the greatest electronic ins

I strongly believe that if you set aside genre preferences the solid body electric guitar coupled to a tube amplifier is objectively the greatest electronic instrument ever created. All other electronic instruments, with the one exception being the Theramin, have a fundamental problem with human expression. There is an unsolvable disconnect between what the performer's actions and their audience. See: https://www.scribd.com/document/55134776/48787070-Bob-Ostertag-Why-Computer-Music-Sucks https://www.scribd.com/document/55134776/48787070-Bob-Ostert... With an electric guitar you get the physicality and dynamism of an acoustic instrument with the complex timbres and extended technique possibilities of an electric/electronic instrument. There are complex and musically significant feedback loops occurring across many dimensions that lead to extremely complex transformations of timbre via both traditional music theoretical techniques and the physics of a tube amplifier combined with an inductive load (the guitar pickup). Its really crazy how much more dynamic and complex this can be then even a highly sophisticated modular synthesizer or whatever. Even the way you over load the power supply in a tube amplifier can be manipulated on the fly to enhance and transform timbre. Then on top of all that it is so incredibly physical that a performer like Jimi Hendrix can manipulate these systems and have the audience intuitively understand what he is doing. Never in a million years would THAT be possible with any other electronic instrument.

deafpolygon 8mo ago
I suppose you haven’t heard some really talented sitar players out there. For a traditionally non-electronic instrument, it’s got some crazy sounds.
- solomonb 8mo ago
  I think you misunderstand my comment entirely. I'm not comparing electric to acoustic instruments at all.
gwbas1c 8mo ago
I watched Wayne Coyne of the Flaming Lips do something similar with some kind of "I don't know what" controller, it was some kind of input in his microphone stand. As he moved it around, the sound and projection changed. I remembered learning about similar MIDI controllers when I was in school.
- bigiain 8mo ago
  Imogen Heap created a set of gloves that transform finger flexing and wrist movement into midi signals you can use in whatever way your performance software allows. https://mimugloves.com/gloves/ https://mimugloves.com/gloves/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq52kT6YY-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq52kT6YY-0
Nition 8mo ago
There have been some interesting keyboard input devices coming out which allow for more expression than normal piano keys, using a sort of hack to the MIDI system called MPE - MIDI Polyphonic Expression. For example the Seaboard Rise or the Osmose. Depending on the instrument it's possible to do per-note pitch bends, change pressure while holding notes, perform vibrato etc. Visually the physical movement is not as interesting as electric guitar though, so yours probably still wins.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
pdntspa 8mo ago
> There is an unsolvable disconnect between what the performer's actions and their audience Is that really true though? If I watch a cellist play I can pretty clearly see all the things they are doing and it will correlate neatly to the timbre of the sound. Secondly I think it's important to note the tube amp and the guitar are seperable, and I don't think that their connection is particularly magical. I can reamp a sound from my synthesizer (or maybe a keytar?) into a guitar chain, and if I manipulate the mic and other controls in the same way I might manipulate the pickup, I can also get all manner of interesting feedback effects. My inputs will have different harmonic characteristics of course, and the tube amp's effects are mostly transformations of harmonics; you'll still get some cool tones and they will be subject to a lot of the same rules as if a guitar was being played.
- dec0dedab0de 8mo ago
  they're comparing an electric guitar to electronic instruments, like midi keyboards. An electric cello would be the same thing as an electric guitar in this context.
- Nition 8mo ago
  They're talking about electronic instruments there. The comment is about how electronic instruments don't generally match the physical expressiveness of acoustic instruments (like the Cello).
- solomonb 8mo ago
  I'm talking about electronic instruments how they are deficient in expressiveness compared to your cello example. > Secondly I think it's important to note the tube amp and the guitar are seperable, and I don't think that their connection is particularly magical. I can reamp a sound from my synthesizer (or maybe a keytar?) into a guitar chain, and if I manipulate the mic and other controls in the same way I might manipulate the pickup, I can also get all manner of interesting feedback effects. The story is not quite so simple. Your synthesizer is going to have a buffered output so it wont have the complex impedance loading interactions with the amplifier as the guitar pickup. This is actually critical to how early distortion effects such as the classic Fuzzface work and imo is essential for the kind of complex timbres you can produce with a guitar + tube amp. In fact you can take an electric guitar, put a buffer pedal in the chain between your fuzz pedal and amp and completely destroy the ability to produce wild feedback and distortion.
anthk 8mo ago
Ahem, just two words. Yamaha DX-7. Synth music elevated electric bound tones to anything ever heard. I remidn you that most of the rock and roll and rock music was about speed and mimicking the sound of a rumbling car engine, as it was a symbol of the freedom in America, being able to run away from your toxic communities to find yourself better anywhere else. That was the message for the young with rock and roll: a speedy engine for your ears. Electronic music was like replacing a car with UFO evoking you a space travel. With the progressive subgenre of techno music you got the same feeling, but with no subtle hints. Heck, one of the most known songs in Spain ever, "Flying Free", literally remixes the sounds of drifting cars between the melodies, making the listener really happy in a very direct way as tons of youngs in the 90's got into the outskirt night clubs... by car. So they felt as driving an infinite highway rave with no end for days.
- bigiain 8mo ago
  The amusing thing (to me at least) is that while the DX7 gave users almost infinite options as to how they could create and shape sounds, if you know what to listen for you'll hear the E PIANO 1 and BASS 1 presets an about half of all mid 80s hits. Turns out when they gave musicians a tool with immense flexibility, many of them still chose to use two of the (admittedly great) preset sounds.
  - Blackthorn 8mo ago
    To be fair, a lot of that is because the DX7 (or rather, FM synthesis in general) is just absolutely arcane when it comes to programming.
    - Slow_Hand 8mo ago
      Yup. FM Synthesis is challenging enough to implement, but doing so on the DX7's interface is a whole other level of frustrating. It's far from the hands-on interfaces of most subtractive or modular synthesizers.
  - matheusmoreira 8mo ago
    Apparently this happens every time. A sample disk included with tracker software was used in hundreds if not thousands of modules and pretty much defined the sound of the Amiga. https://youtu.be/roBkg-iPrbw https://youtu.be/roBkg-iPrbw Few program synthesizers. Most just use presets. Infinite freedom is paralyzing. Building blocks are comfortable.
dec0dedab0de 8mo ago
I generally reserve the word electronic to mean something with a microcontroller or discreet logic components. Electronic guitars exist, but they're basically differently shaped keyboards. I often lament the lack of other electric instruments.
- musictubes 8mo ago
  I have come around to the idea of guitars being electronic instruments. Strings are the original oscillators. Once they become electrical signals it isn't clear to me how they differ categorically from any other electric instrument. There are an almost infinite number of pedals, many of which offer things like filters, LFOs, and other synthesis stalwarts. You could even make the guitar a controller for more traditional synthesis work.
asdfman123 8mo ago
You could argue that it's one of the most versatile instruments, sure. "Greatest" is completely subjective. But is it one of the most versatile instruments? You can do signal transforms with any kind of audio input, although it's done more with the electric guitar than any other instruments. I would say it in practice, it has the most versatile sonic profile.
- solomonb 8mo ago
  A modular synth is more versatile in terms of enumerated signal transformations. Its the ability to be expressive with those signal transformations that makes the guitar+tube amp what it is.
  - vegadw 8mo ago
    I'm a guitarist, but also have a modular. With the right interface, I think the synth can be more expressive. Look at the Haken Continuum or ExpressiveE Osmose - both can be used with something like the Expert Sleepers FH-2 to get MPE data to the modular. I do see your point, and agree the amount of articulation you can do with guitar is hard to beat, but I do think a synth can win, if the setup is built for it.
    - cowboylowrez 8mo ago
      Synths with mod wheels are the bomb, I used to have a roland that had a pitch wheel for bends and then push it for tremolos, vibratos and such, and way more voices, envelopes etc and that was a few decades ago and I'm sure that nowadays guitars are not going to compete except at one thing, making guitar sounding noises, you can get guitary sounds but somehow they come off to me to be too clean and lack the slop that various fingerings produce lol
vanderZwan 8mo ago
The reverse example of this is musicians who play techno with analog instruments, like Pipe Guy, Basstong, and Meute[0][1][2]. There are always some people who get extremely defensive whenever I say that techno didn't click for me until I heard this kind of "techlow" music. Specifically about the part where I think that the reason is also a human expression problem, because of limitations imposed by the electronic media used. EDIT: having said that, I don't think I would agree with your premise, because it is colored by a subtle form of survivor bias. None of us remember what it's like to not know electronic guitars or what they sound like, so claiming "the audience intuitively understands what Jimmy Hendrix is doing" is like saying everyone "intuitively understands" their native language. On top of that there's nothing about the workings of an electronic guitar that wouldn't in principle work for something like an electronic violin or whatever. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gED3rn2Tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gED3rn2Tc [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn52b-bWfFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn52b-bWfFM [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYtjttnp1Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYtjttnp1Rs
- soulofmischief 8mo ago
  Great recommendations. Throwing Klangphonics in the ring even though they use electronic instruments as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixtQAq2LzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixtQAq2LzE
  - vanderZwan 8mo ago
    Nice addition! First time I heard of them and I'm liking what I'm hearing so far. And just to clarify: I don't dislike electronic instruments. I just think that on some subconscious level the human brain can detect other humans playing a live instrument. Like there's something "embodied" in the sound that is likely missing from a pure electronic instrument. And I needed that element to "unlock" access to techno.
    - soulofmischief 8mo ago
      Yep, there's a reason we have the industry term "humanization" in sound design, composition and arrangement. Tons of work has been done on various modes of humanization by trying to parameterize and modulate these aspects over time. Timing accuracy, velocity variance, chance, etc. A well-played instrument certainly feels like someone speaking and expressing themselves to you. There are attempts to capture this with MPE instruments such as the Osmose, or Imogen Heap's MiMU gloves. https://www.expressivee.com/2-osmose https://www.expressivee.com/2-osmose https://mimugloves.com/ https://mimugloves.com/
gnarlouse 8mo ago
I feel like the synthesizer--CMI Fairlight, Moog anything, Synclavier, PPG Wave, and just the general concept of modular synthesis--are pretty staunch competitors. Yours is certainly a fun and fair take, and arguably the electric guitar+tube amps birthed so many genres (blues, soul, funk, rock, punk, metal, etc) where as synthesizers remained pretty niche with their contribution to experimental music and pop music, mixing in with rock funk and disco, and the titan of EDM that grew out of that.
jrm4 8mo ago
Great argument -- but I'd also counter that "the turntable" (i.e. in the hands of experts like Q-Bert, Craze, Rob Swift, Jazzy Jeff and others) fits this quite well -- especially re your "have the audience understand what he is doing argument"
- solomonb 8mo ago
  Haha that is a great highly expressive counter example! However, as far as versatility of sound I still think the guitar+tube amp wins as you have access to all of western music theory and techniques as its still a traditional string instrument.
  - jrm4 8mo ago
    Oh I'll fight you there. Turntable wins because you have access to LITERALLY ALL RECORDED MUSIC EVER :)
    - xcf_seetan 8mo ago
      Instantly? Out of your head? Also for something really new and creative? ;)
Blackthorn 8mo ago
> All other electronic instruments, with the one exception being the Theramin, have a fundamental problem with human expression. There is an unsolvable disconnect between what the performer's actions and their audience. Electric bass? Heck, even in synthesizers, you have the EWI or the Haken Continuum. Guitar (and bass) are obviously and far and away the most successful, but it does a disservice to a number of wonderful inventions to say they're the only ones. Just look at what the Japanese band T-SQUARE does with the EWI to see people innovating at the edges.
FpUser 8mo ago
>"All other electronic instruments, with the one exception being the Theramin, have a fundamental problem with human expression. There is an unsolvable disconnect between what the performer's actions and their audience." Look at Roli Seaboard, it has insane amount degrees of freedom / expression https://youtu.be/2fQbtp2BgY4?si=S52A-22A3GlXPajU https://youtu.be/2fQbtp2BgY4?si=S52A-22A3GlXPajU past the middle starts solo
hypertexthero 8mo ago
Hmmm, I disagree, having played electric and acoustic guitars for over two decades and begun learning piano and synths for the first time in 2025. For one, you can’t easily play two melodies simultaneously across several octaves, using both of your hands, with an electric guitar. Stringed electronic instruments do have their advantages, but so do the others. Each music making thing has its place in the spectrum. Two books that have helped me greatly in my musical life, in case people haven’t heard of them, are The Listening Book, and Bridge of Waves, by W.A. Mathieu.
- kavalg 8mo ago
  You are completely right about the polyphonic expressivity of piano. What I lack is the intonation (bending) of tone.
  - hypertexthero 7mo ago
    Guitars certainly have a more intimate connection between the touch of fingers and the sound, including the bending of the tone, one of Hendrix’s virtuosities. Keyboards can approach that with polyphonic touch keys like the Hydrasynth (lean into keys, pressing them harder, for bending the tone in a configured patch), sustain pedals, and pitch bend/modulation controls, but not the nuanced touch of skin on a vibrating string. I think synth guitars exist, too, but don’t know anything about them. The pedalboards are enough, maybe :)
    - xcf_seetan 7mo ago
      > I think synth guitars exist Of course they exists, just listen to Pat Metheny. There are Midi hexapickups that can play any synth with MIDI and full expression.
- ben7799 7mo ago
  There are certainly guitarists who can play simultaneous melodies. If you're limiting to a 6 string guitar the distance between the two melodies would be limited compared to a piano but guitars don't have to be limited to 6 strings. Classical guitar is full of this kind of thing. Having taken piano lessons but being more into guitar I think the thing is almost all people who play piano are introduced to this and it is a core concept in far more piano music than guitar music. But it is not impossible on guitar, and many works for piano that get adapted to guitar require the player to do so. E.x. there are plenty of players who have studied and played the Well Tempered Clavier on guitar.
sonofhans 8mo ago
This comment is a love letter to electric guitar. I adore it. Consider reading “Desolation Road” by Ian McDonald. I don’t want to spoil any of it, and perhaps science fiction isn’t your cup of tea, but at one point there is a character on Mars with a 700-year-old strat, and you can tell Ian McDonald loves the guitar as much as you do.
dwd 7mo ago
Similar to the Theremin is the ondes Martenot. Jonny Greenwood (Radiohead) describes it as a "very accurate Theremin". You can hear it particularly on "Where I End and You Begin" from Hail to the Thief. Ed O'Brien compliments its sound using an EBow (back before he had the sustainer) in that song. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot
- jawilson2 7mo ago
  Yes! I always think first of How to Disappear Completely, which I think was the first song he used it on. I remember watching some concert in college from the Kid A days, and he would have like 3 Ondes Martenot players on stage with them, crazy stuff from the band that wrote Creep like 5 years earlier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWwMhRsRgo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWwMhRsRgo
  - dwd 7mo ago
    This video might be the best explanation for Creep, which while they never wanted to record it; they do acknowledge it set them up to be able to do everything since. But a lot of Pablo Honey is mediocre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlhaJqqIfCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlhaJqqIfCE This is also cool; live version of How to Disappear Completely at the start and one of the few Jonny interviews where he speaks. From a documentary on the Ondes Martinot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B92ZgRSM2tI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B92ZgRSM2tI
    - jawilson2 7mo ago
      Very cool! I'm confused why you didn't link the video of Radiohead wearing all black and playing at MTV Spring Break :-). I was VERY deep into Radiohead in college (early 2000s), and love all of these videos; I'm pretty sure I've seen that 2nd video footage around the time of the Kid A tour, but the dates are wrong. Kid A is probably one of my 5 deserted island albums.
      - dwd 7mo ago
schwartzworld 7mo ago
> have a fundamental problem with human expression. How up to date is this opinion of yours? Expression on guitar is pretty intuitive, but modern electronic instrument manufacturers have been working on this problem and created modes of expression that definitely solve this problem. For example, EWIs allow you to use breath control for expression with many of the same techniques available on actual wind instruments. Also many synths now have features like polyphonic aftertouch, pitch/mod wheels, which allow you to add expression to a note while it is playing. Apps and hardware exist which allow you to use novel methods of capturing motion or other forms of expression. And most modern synths/midi controllers allow you to decide what parameters are affected. > Then on top of all that it is so incredibly physical That's an affectation. I can stand on my tiptoes and close my eyes when bending up a note on the synth the same as I can on the guitar. Neither affects the sound, and both are a conscious decision to project an appearance of "I'm really shredding" > With an electric guitar you get the physicality and dynamism of an acoustic instrument with the complex timbres and extended technique possibilities of an electric/electronic instrument. That can apply to any instrument once you "electrify" it. What makes a guitar more expressive than a cello or trumpet with a pickup/mic running through effect processing? I play guitar, keys and trumpet, and while I agree that a casio keyboard has limited expression options, your opinion doesn't sound researched.
- nikodotio 7mo ago
  > created modes of expression that definitely solve this problem. I certainly don’t agree with this as a musician who has tried most of these attempts by electronic music manufacturers.
- xcf_seetan 7mo ago
  > What makes a guitar more expressive than a cello or trumpet with a pickup/mic running through effect A whammy bar?
  - fwip 7mo ago
    You can bend pitch on both trumpet and cello, it's the kind of skill you'd expect most highschooler players to have.
WalterBright 7mo ago
No two trumpet players sound the same. I know who is playing just by the tone. Listen to Herb Alpert / Al Hirt / Maurice Andre, all playing the same instrument, but wildly different.

deafpolygon 8mo ago

I suppose you haven’t heard some really talented sitar players out there. For a traditionally non-electronic instrument, it’s got some crazy sounds.

solomonb 8mo ago
I think you misunderstand my comment entirely. I'm not comparing electric to acoustic instruments at all.

gwbas1c 8mo ago

I watched Wayne Coyne of the Flaming Lips do something similar with some kind of "I don't know what" controller, it was some kind of input in his microphone stand. As he moved it around, the sound and projection changed. I remembered learning about similar MIDI controllers when I was in school.

bigiain 8mo ago
Imogen Heap created a set of gloves that transform finger flexing and wrist movement into midi signals you can use in whatever way your performance software allows. https://mimugloves.com/gloves/ https://mimugloves.com/gloves/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq52kT6YY-0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq52kT6YY-0

Nition 8mo ago

There have been some interesting keyboard input devices coming out which allow for more expression than normal piano keys, using a sort of hack to the MIDI system called MPE - MIDI Polyphonic Expression. For example the Seaboard Rise or the Osmose. Depending on the instrument it's possible to do per-note pitch bends, change pressure while holding notes, perform vibrato etc. Visually the physical movement is not as interesting as electric guitar though, so yours probably still wins.

deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

pdntspa 8mo ago

> There is an unsolvable disconnect between what the performer's actions and their audience Is that really true though? If I watch a cellist play I can pretty clearly see all the things they are doing and it will correlate neatly to the timbre of the sound. Secondly I think it's important to note the tube amp and the guitar are seperable, and I don't think that their connection is particularly magical. I can reamp a sound from my synthesizer (or maybe a keytar?) into a guitar chain, and if I manipulate the mic and other controls in the same way I might manipulate the pickup, I can also get all manner of interesting feedback effects. My inputs will have different harmonic characteristics of course, and the tube amp's effects are mostly transformations of harmonics; you'll still get some cool tones and they will be subject to a lot of the same rules as if a guitar was being played.

dec0dedab0de 8mo ago
they're comparing an electric guitar to electronic instruments, like midi keyboards. An electric cello would be the same thing as an electric guitar in this context.
Nition 8mo ago
They're talking about electronic instruments there. The comment is about how electronic instruments don't generally match the physical expressiveness of acoustic instruments (like the Cello).
solomonb 8mo ago
I'm talking about electronic instruments how they are deficient in expressiveness compared to your cello example. > Secondly I think it's important to note the tube amp and the guitar are seperable, and I don't think that their connection is particularly magical. I can reamp a sound from my synthesizer (or maybe a keytar?) into a guitar chain, and if I manipulate the mic and other controls in the same way I might manipulate the pickup, I can also get all manner of interesting feedback effects. The story is not quite so simple. Your synthesizer is going to have a buffered output so it wont have the complex impedance loading interactions with the amplifier as the guitar pickup. This is actually critical to how early distortion effects such as the classic Fuzzface work and imo is essential for the kind of complex timbres you can produce with a guitar + tube amp. In fact you can take an electric guitar, put a buffer pedal in the chain between your fuzz pedal and amp and completely destroy the ability to produce wild feedback and distortion.

anthk 8mo ago

Ahem, just two words. Yamaha DX-7. Synth music elevated electric bound tones to anything ever heard. I remidn you that most of the rock and roll and rock music was about speed and mimicking the sound of a rumbling car engine, as it was a symbol of the freedom in America, being able to run away from your toxic communities to find yourself better anywhere else. That was the message for the young with rock and roll: a speedy engine for your ears. Electronic music was like replacing a car with UFO evoking you a space travel. With the progressive subgenre of techno music you got the same feeling, but with no subtle hints. Heck, one of the most known songs in Spain ever, "Flying Free", literally remixes the sounds of drifting cars between the melodies, making the listener really happy in a very direct way as tons of youngs in the 90's got into the outskirt night clubs... by car. So they felt as driving an infinite highway rave with no end for days.

bigiain 8mo ago
The amusing thing (to me at least) is that while the DX7 gave users almost infinite options as to how they could create and shape sounds, if you know what to listen for you'll hear the E PIANO 1 and BASS 1 presets an about half of all mid 80s hits. Turns out when they gave musicians a tool with immense flexibility, many of them still chose to use two of the (admittedly great) preset sounds.
- Blackthorn 8mo ago
  To be fair, a lot of that is because the DX7 (or rather, FM synthesis in general) is just absolutely arcane when it comes to programming.
  - Slow_Hand 8mo ago
    Yup. FM Synthesis is challenging enough to implement, but doing so on the DX7's interface is a whole other level of frustrating. It's far from the hands-on interfaces of most subtractive or modular synthesizers.
- matheusmoreira 8mo ago
  Apparently this happens every time. A sample disk included with tracker software was used in hundreds if not thousands of modules and pretty much defined the sound of the Amiga. https://youtu.be/roBkg-iPrbw https://youtu.be/roBkg-iPrbw Few program synthesizers. Most just use presets. Infinite freedom is paralyzing. Building blocks are comfortable.

dec0dedab0de 8mo ago

I generally reserve the word electronic to mean something with a microcontroller or discreet logic components. Electronic guitars exist, but they're basically differently shaped keyboards. I often lament the lack of other electric instruments.

musictubes 8mo ago
I have come around to the idea of guitars being electronic instruments. Strings are the original oscillators. Once they become electrical signals it isn't clear to me how they differ categorically from any other electric instrument. There are an almost infinite number of pedals, many of which offer things like filters, LFOs, and other synthesis stalwarts. You could even make the guitar a controller for more traditional synthesis work.

asdfman123 8mo ago

You could argue that it's one of the most versatile instruments, sure. "Greatest" is completely subjective. But is it one of the most versatile instruments? You can do signal transforms with any kind of audio input, although it's done more with the electric guitar than any other instruments. I would say it in practice, it has the most versatile sonic profile.

solomonb 8mo ago
A modular synth is more versatile in terms of enumerated signal transformations. Its the ability to be expressive with those signal transformations that makes the guitar+tube amp what it is.
- vegadw 8mo ago
  I'm a guitarist, but also have a modular. With the right interface, I think the synth can be more expressive. Look at the Haken Continuum or ExpressiveE Osmose - both can be used with something like the Expert Sleepers FH-2 to get MPE data to the modular. I do see your point, and agree the amount of articulation you can do with guitar is hard to beat, but I do think a synth can win, if the setup is built for it.
  - cowboylowrez 8mo ago
    Synths with mod wheels are the bomb, I used to have a roland that had a pitch wheel for bends and then push it for tremolos, vibratos and such, and way more voices, envelopes etc and that was a few decades ago and I'm sure that nowadays guitars are not going to compete except at one thing, making guitar sounding noises, you can get guitary sounds but somehow they come off to me to be too clean and lack the slop that various fingerings produce lol

vanderZwan 8mo ago

The reverse example of this is musicians who play techno with analog instruments, like Pipe Guy, Basstong, and Meute[0][1][2]. There are always some people who get extremely defensive whenever I say that techno didn't click for me until I heard this kind of "techlow" music. Specifically about the part where I think that the reason is also a human expression problem, because of limitations imposed by the electronic media used. EDIT: having said that, I don't think I would agree with your premise, because it is colored by a subtle form of survivor bias. None of us remember what it's like to not know electronic guitars or what they sound like, so claiming "the audience intuitively understands what Jimmy Hendrix is doing" is like saying everyone "intuitively understands" their native language. On top of that there's nothing about the workings of an electronic guitar that wouldn't in principle work for something like an electronic violin or whatever. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gED3rn2Tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gED3rn2Tc [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn52b-bWfFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn52b-bWfFM [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYtjttnp1Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYtjttnp1Rs

soulofmischief 8mo ago
Great recommendations. Throwing Klangphonics in the ring even though they use electronic instruments as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixtQAq2LzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixtQAq2LzE
- vanderZwan 8mo ago
  Nice addition! First time I heard of them and I'm liking what I'm hearing so far. And just to clarify: I don't dislike electronic instruments. I just think that on some subconscious level the human brain can detect other humans playing a live instrument. Like there's something "embodied" in the sound that is likely missing from a pure electronic instrument. And I needed that element to "unlock" access to techno.
  - soulofmischief 8mo ago
    Yep, there's a reason we have the industry term "humanization" in sound design, composition and arrangement. Tons of work has been done on various modes of humanization by trying to parameterize and modulate these aspects over time. Timing accuracy, velocity variance, chance, etc. A well-played instrument certainly feels like someone speaking and expressing themselves to you. There are attempts to capture this with MPE instruments such as the Osmose, or Imogen Heap's MiMU gloves. https://www.expressivee.com/2-osmose https://www.expressivee.com/2-osmose https://mimugloves.com/ https://mimugloves.com/

gnarlouse 8mo ago

I feel like the synthesizer--CMI Fairlight, Moog anything, Synclavier, PPG Wave, and just the general concept of modular synthesis--are pretty staunch competitors. Yours is certainly a fun and fair take, and arguably the electric guitar+tube amps birthed so many genres (blues, soul, funk, rock, punk, metal, etc) where as synthesizers remained pretty niche with their contribution to experimental music and pop music, mixing in with rock funk and disco, and the titan of EDM that grew out of that.

jrm4 8mo ago

Great argument -- but I'd also counter that "the turntable" (i.e. in the hands of experts like Q-Bert, Craze, Rob Swift, Jazzy Jeff and others) fits this quite well -- especially re your "have the audience understand what he is doing argument"

solomonb 8mo ago
Haha that is a great highly expressive counter example! However, as far as versatility of sound I still think the guitar+tube amp wins as you have access to all of western music theory and techniques as its still a traditional string instrument.
- jrm4 8mo ago
  Oh I'll fight you there. Turntable wins because you have access to LITERALLY ALL RECORDED MUSIC EVER :)
  - xcf_seetan 8mo ago
    Instantly? Out of your head? Also for something really new and creative? ;)

Blackthorn 8mo ago

> All other electronic instruments, with the one exception being the Theramin, have a fundamental problem with human expression. There is an unsolvable disconnect between what the performer's actions and their audience. Electric bass? Heck, even in synthesizers, you have the EWI or the Haken Continuum. Guitar (and bass) are obviously and far and away the most successful, but it does a disservice to a number of wonderful inventions to say they're the only ones. Just look at what the Japanese band T-SQUARE does with the EWI to see people innovating at the edges.

FpUser 8mo ago

>"All other electronic instruments, with the one exception being the Theramin, have a fundamental problem with human expression. There is an unsolvable disconnect between what the performer's actions and their audience." Look at Roli Seaboard, it has insane amount degrees of freedom / expression https://youtu.be/2fQbtp2BgY4?si=S52A-22A3GlXPajU https://youtu.be/2fQbtp2BgY4?si=S52A-22A3GlXPajU past the middle starts solo

hypertexthero 8mo ago

Hmmm, I disagree, having played electric and acoustic guitars for over two decades and begun learning piano and synths for the first time in 2025. For one, you can’t easily play two melodies simultaneously across several octaves, using both of your hands, with an electric guitar. Stringed electronic instruments do have their advantages, but so do the others. Each music making thing has its place in the spectrum. Two books that have helped me greatly in my musical life, in case people haven’t heard of them, are The Listening Book, and Bridge of Waves, by W.A. Mathieu.

kavalg 8mo ago
You are completely right about the polyphonic expressivity of piano. What I lack is the intonation (bending) of tone.
- hypertexthero 7mo ago
  Guitars certainly have a more intimate connection between the touch of fingers and the sound, including the bending of the tone, one of Hendrix’s virtuosities. Keyboards can approach that with polyphonic touch keys like the Hydrasynth (lean into keys, pressing them harder, for bending the tone in a configured patch), sustain pedals, and pitch bend/modulation controls, but not the nuanced touch of skin on a vibrating string. I think synth guitars exist, too, but don’t know anything about them. The pedalboards are enough, maybe :)
  - xcf_seetan 7mo ago
    > I think synth guitars exist Of course they exists, just listen to Pat Metheny. There are Midi hexapickups that can play any synth with MIDI and full expression.
ben7799 7mo ago
There are certainly guitarists who can play simultaneous melodies. If you're limiting to a 6 string guitar the distance between the two melodies would be limited compared to a piano but guitars don't have to be limited to 6 strings. Classical guitar is full of this kind of thing. Having taken piano lessons but being more into guitar I think the thing is almost all people who play piano are introduced to this and it is a core concept in far more piano music than guitar music. But it is not impossible on guitar, and many works for piano that get adapted to guitar require the player to do so. E.x. there are plenty of players who have studied and played the Well Tempered Clavier on guitar.

sonofhans 8mo ago

This comment is a love letter to electric guitar. I adore it. Consider reading “Desolation Road” by Ian McDonald. I don’t want to spoil any of it, and perhaps science fiction isn’t your cup of tea, but at one point there is a character on Mars with a 700-year-old strat, and you can tell Ian McDonald loves the guitar as much as you do.

dwd 7mo ago

Similar to the Theremin is the ondes Martenot. Jonny Greenwood (Radiohead) describes it as a "very accurate Theremin". You can hear it particularly on "Where I End and You Begin" from Hail to the Thief. Ed O'Brien compliments its sound using an EBow (back before he had the sustainer) in that song. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot

jawilson2 7mo ago
Yes! I always think first of How to Disappear Completely, which I think was the first song he used it on. I remember watching some concert in college from the Kid A days, and he would have like 3 Ondes Martenot players on stage with them, crazy stuff from the band that wrote Creep like 5 years earlier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWwMhRsRgo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWwMhRsRgo
- dwd 7mo ago
  This video might be the best explanation for Creep, which while they never wanted to record it; they do acknowledge it set them up to be able to do everything since. But a lot of Pablo Honey is mediocre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlhaJqqIfCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlhaJqqIfCE This is also cool; live version of How to Disappear Completely at the start and one of the few Jonny interviews where he speaks. From a documentary on the Ondes Martinot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B92ZgRSM2tI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B92ZgRSM2tI
  - jawilson2 7mo ago
    Very cool! I'm confused why you didn't link the video of Radiohead wearing all black and playing at MTV Spring Break :-). I was VERY deep into Radiohead in college (early 2000s), and love all of these videos; I'm pretty sure I've seen that 2nd video footage around the time of the Kid A tour, but the dates are wrong. Kid A is probably one of my 5 deserted island albums.
    - dwd 7mo ago

schwartzworld 7mo ago

> have a fundamental problem with human expression. How up to date is this opinion of yours? Expression on guitar is pretty intuitive, but modern electronic instrument manufacturers have been working on this problem and created modes of expression that definitely solve this problem. For example, EWIs allow you to use breath control for expression with many of the same techniques available on actual wind instruments. Also many synths now have features like polyphonic aftertouch, pitch/mod wheels, which allow you to add expression to a note while it is playing. Apps and hardware exist which allow you to use novel methods of capturing motion or other forms of expression. And most modern synths/midi controllers allow you to decide what parameters are affected. > Then on top of all that it is so incredibly physical That's an affectation. I can stand on my tiptoes and close my eyes when bending up a note on the synth the same as I can on the guitar. Neither affects the sound, and both are a conscious decision to project an appearance of "I'm really shredding" > With an electric guitar you get the physicality and dynamism of an acoustic instrument with the complex timbres and extended technique possibilities of an electric/electronic instrument. That can apply to any instrument once you "electrify" it. What makes a guitar more expressive than a cello or trumpet with a pickup/mic running through effect processing? I play guitar, keys and trumpet, and while I agree that a casio keyboard has limited expression options, your opinion doesn't sound researched.

nikodotio 7mo ago
> created modes of expression that definitely solve this problem. I certainly don’t agree with this as a musician who has tried most of these attempts by electronic music manufacturers.
xcf_seetan 7mo ago
> What makes a guitar more expressive than a cello or trumpet with a pickup/mic running through effect A whammy bar?
- fwip 7mo ago
  You can bend pitch on both trumpet and cello, it's the kind of skill you'd expect most highschooler players to have.

WalterBright 7mo ago

No two trumpet players sound the same. I know who is playing just by the tone. Listen to Herb Alpert / Al Hirt / Maurice Andre, all playing the same instrument, but wildly different.