4 ms·

Why have bus stops at all, waymo should build a transit bus or large van and run them autonomously. Then they could optimize the fleet as they please. Bus stops

Why have bus stops at all, waymo should build a transit bus or large van and run them autonomously. Then they could optimize the fleet as they please. Bus stops were a solution to a lack of connectivity and demand.

culi 8mo ago
Those busses still need designated spots to stop at. They can't be stopping in the middle of a street
- krab 8mo ago
  Taxis/Ubers/... can and do stop in the middle of a street. Why would that be different for a bus picking up a single person?
  - oblio 8mo ago
    What if it's 5 people? 10? What if instead of many huge buses like today it's 5x as many smaller buses? You can't just have buses stopping randomly everywhere, it doesn't scale.
    - krab 8mo ago
      The assumption is that a "waymo bus" would be hailed by an app and the service would plan routes on demand. In such case, bus stops would be needed only in busy areas or in places where it would be dangerous to stop. This is based on the observation that people, including police, tolerate taxi drivers stopping at places where it's technically illegal.
  - cozzyd 8mo ago
    yes, and it keeps blocking my bus. Fortunately it is now legal in Chicago for drivers to get fined for stopping in bus stops/bus lanes automatically via cameras on the buses. Not sure if it is actually happening though..
- idontwantthis 8mo ago
  If you keep asking self driving bros questions you can get them to eventually reinvent buses and trains. It’s fun!
- amluto 8mo ago
  Indeed. And if you want a lot of people to board the bus efficiently at the same time, you need them to agree to congregate somewhere before the bus arrives. One might call such a meeting point a “bus stop” :)
  - the_sleaze_ 8mo ago
    > you need them to agree The app would say - meet here. > One might call such a meeting point a “bus stop” :) Call it what you want, it could be in a strip mall parking lot, a convenient corner or just in front of the apartment building. Optimized for traveling distance between the passengers.
    - amluto 8mo ago
      What’s the point of making this dynamic? Go find a city where people are out, having fun, and not buried in their phones, and where the city isn’t full of strip malls and parking lots. There will be people who want to be picked up during busy hours, and having a shelter from the sun or rain is nice, and having a place where there isn’t a parked car or an uber in the way is nice. Lots of Asian capitals are like this.
      - the_sleaze_ 8mo ago
        > people are out, having fun, and not buried in their phones and where the city isn’t full of strip malls and parking lots. Are we still talking about how to optimize public transportation on city streets?
- axus 8mo ago
  I think a bus could stop in the middle of the street, but a bus stop still removes dependence on a smartphone and protects from the weather.
  - ragall 8mo ago
    No it couldn't, for legal liability reasons, usability for the travellers, etc...
- calvinmorrison 8mo ago
  funnily enough, they get designated spots and they still just stop in the middle of the street
enragedcacti 8mo ago
Demand-responsive transport (DRT) has been tried a bunch of times in all sorts of different environments and pretty much never lives up to the promise. Predictability is really important and ridership drops as soon as users start having to plan too far ahead, which in the past has been essential to DRT routing. Autonomy could improve responsiveness to demand but you still run into other issues. DRT usually won't be able to take advantage of things proven to make buses faster and more consistent (bus lanes, reducing stop count, transit priority signals). Futher, consistency and response times gained by dynamic routing can easily be overshadowed by increased variability in trip time as the route adjusts to add new passengers or make out of the way drop-offs.
- dghlsakjg 8mo ago
  I've seen it work pretty well in a number of places in the form of privately owned minibuses/vans that can rapidly go where the demand is needed. As an example, all throughout the Eastern Caribbean this system works really well (in my experience better than most centrally planned bus systems in large cities). On any given island you can go to any main road and within a few minutes a minibus will come along. Most of the time if your aren't familiar with the geography, you just tell the conductor where you are trying to get to, and they will make sure that you get off in the right spot to get where you are going or connect to another minibus. Typical cost was ~$2. Predictability was pretty low, but because of the small size of busses, there were a lot of them roaming around, I don't think I ever waited more than 15 minutes, and that was in very out of the way places.
  - AlotOfReading 8mo ago
    It's really not ideal. Similar systems are common in Central Asia. They make it difficult for travelers to predict journey times, it's unfriendly to tourists, and it's much less accessible to other populations (e.g. the disabled). They also don't scale well to large urban environments or out of the way journeys in my experience.
    - dghlsakjg 8mo ago
janalsncm 8mo ago
Autonomy isn’t necessary, but aside from cost there’s nothing stopping a city from operating a bus more like a shared Uber ride. Having fixed stops at fixed times is fairly primitive. They would be smaller shuttles.
- rangestransform 8mo ago
  Autonomy is necessary to get the unionized bus drivers out of the way, the cost of running a bus is dominated by staffing costs.
cozzyd 8mo ago
Wait until you're waiting in the wind and snow with a toddler, and you'll prefer a bus shelter.
otikik 8mo ago
Waymo is worth nothing if there’s congestion. That’s the problem public transportation solves, not lack of connectivity

culi 8mo ago

Those busses still need designated spots to stop at. They can't be stopping in the middle of a street

krab 8mo ago
Taxis/Ubers/... can and do stop in the middle of a street. Why would that be different for a bus picking up a single person?
- oblio 8mo ago
  What if it's 5 people? 10? What if instead of many huge buses like today it's 5x as many smaller buses? You can't just have buses stopping randomly everywhere, it doesn't scale.
  - krab 8mo ago
    The assumption is that a "waymo bus" would be hailed by an app and the service would plan routes on demand. In such case, bus stops would be needed only in busy areas or in places where it would be dangerous to stop. This is based on the observation that people, including police, tolerate taxi drivers stopping at places where it's technically illegal.
- cozzyd 8mo ago
  yes, and it keeps blocking my bus. Fortunately it is now legal in Chicago for drivers to get fined for stopping in bus stops/bus lanes automatically via cameras on the buses. Not sure if it is actually happening though..
idontwantthis 8mo ago
If you keep asking self driving bros questions you can get them to eventually reinvent buses and trains. It’s fun!
amluto 8mo ago
Indeed. And if you want a lot of people to board the bus efficiently at the same time, you need them to agree to congregate somewhere before the bus arrives. One might call such a meeting point a “bus stop” :)
- the_sleaze_ 8mo ago
  > you need them to agree The app would say - meet here. > One might call such a meeting point a “bus stop” :) Call it what you want, it could be in a strip mall parking lot, a convenient corner or just in front of the apartment building. Optimized for traveling distance between the passengers.
  - amluto 8mo ago
    What’s the point of making this dynamic? Go find a city where people are out, having fun, and not buried in their phones, and where the city isn’t full of strip malls and parking lots. There will be people who want to be picked up during busy hours, and having a shelter from the sun or rain is nice, and having a place where there isn’t a parked car or an uber in the way is nice. Lots of Asian capitals are like this.
    - the_sleaze_ 8mo ago
      > people are out, having fun, and not buried in their phones and where the city isn’t full of strip malls and parking lots. Are we still talking about how to optimize public transportation on city streets?
axus 8mo ago
I think a bus could stop in the middle of the street, but a bus stop still removes dependence on a smartphone and protects from the weather.
- ragall 8mo ago
  No it couldn't, for legal liability reasons, usability for the travellers, etc...
calvinmorrison 8mo ago
funnily enough, they get designated spots and they still just stop in the middle of the street

enragedcacti 8mo ago

Demand-responsive transport (DRT) has been tried a bunch of times in all sorts of different environments and pretty much never lives up to the promise. Predictability is really important and ridership drops as soon as users start having to plan too far ahead, which in the past has been essential to DRT routing. Autonomy could improve responsiveness to demand but you still run into other issues. DRT usually won't be able to take advantage of things proven to make buses faster and more consistent (bus lanes, reducing stop count, transit priority signals). Futher, consistency and response times gained by dynamic routing can easily be overshadowed by increased variability in trip time as the route adjusts to add new passengers or make out of the way drop-offs.

dghlsakjg 8mo ago
I've seen it work pretty well in a number of places in the form of privately owned minibuses/vans that can rapidly go where the demand is needed. As an example, all throughout the Eastern Caribbean this system works really well (in my experience better than most centrally planned bus systems in large cities). On any given island you can go to any main road and within a few minutes a minibus will come along. Most of the time if your aren't familiar with the geography, you just tell the conductor where you are trying to get to, and they will make sure that you get off in the right spot to get where you are going or connect to another minibus. Typical cost was ~$2. Predictability was pretty low, but because of the small size of busses, there were a lot of them roaming around, I don't think I ever waited more than 15 minutes, and that was in very out of the way places.
- AlotOfReading 8mo ago
  It's really not ideal. Similar systems are common in Central Asia. They make it difficult for travelers to predict journey times, it's unfriendly to tourists, and it's much less accessible to other populations (e.g. the disabled). They also don't scale well to large urban environments or out of the way journeys in my experience.
  - dghlsakjg 8mo ago

janalsncm 8mo ago

Autonomy isn’t necessary, but aside from cost there’s nothing stopping a city from operating a bus more like a shared Uber ride. Having fixed stops at fixed times is fairly primitive. They would be smaller shuttles.

rangestransform 8mo ago
Autonomy is necessary to get the unionized bus drivers out of the way, the cost of running a bus is dominated by staffing costs.

cozzyd 8mo ago

Wait until you're waiting in the wind and snow with a toddler, and you'll prefer a bus shelter.

otikik 8mo ago

Waymo is worth nothing if there’s congestion. That’s the problem public transportation solves, not lack of connectivity