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> Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line So there's zero link whatsoever between Hamas executing 1200 civilians on Oct 7th, taking

> Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line So there's zero link whatsoever between Hamas executing 1200 civilians on Oct 7th, taking 200 hostages, and the following war (and war crimes) of Israel? Israel literally unilaterally began a war and committed war crimes without any act of aggression? And from the moment 200 hostages had been taken, many of whom died in captivity, everything was carved in stone and no matter what Hamas did, Israel was going anyway to war and to commit war crimes? Or did something happen on Oct 7th that triggered all this?

harimau777 7mo ago
The issue isn't whether or not Israel started it. It's the genocide they did once it started.
- TurdF3rguson 7mo ago
  It's really about motive and targeting. Were they trying to get the hostages back or just kill people randomly? Were they targeting Hamas or aid workers?
xg15 7mo ago
If they wanted to go after Hamas, why did they employ methods of combat that were guaranteed to affect civilians, like cutting off the entire strip from food supply? Or the massacre that this thread is about for that matter?
- BurningFrog 7mo ago
  [flagged]
austin-cheney 7mo ago
Actually a large number of those 1200 were killed by Israeli incendiary rounds fired from helicopters due to Operation Hannibal. It’s why the estimates kept getting rounded down from an initial 1500, because many of the bodies were too badly incinerated to be counted accurately.
- ceejayoz 7mo ago
  This is a wild enough sounding claim it deserves a cite. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-direc...
- BurningFrog 7mo ago
  The investigation into this found 14 deaths from Hannibal Directive actions. Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. Report: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-2...
  - ceejayoz 7mo ago
    Keep reading, you're missing the next sentences. > The Commission also verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, ISF had likely applied the Hannibal Directive, resulting in the killing of up to 14 Israeli civilians. One woman was killed by ISF helicopter fire while being abducted from Nir Oz to Gaza by militants. In another case the Commission found that Israeli tank fire killed some or all of the 13 civilian hostages held in a house in Be’eri. > The Commission found that Israeli authorities prioritised identifying victims, notifying families and allowing for burial rather than forensic investigation, leading to evidence of crimes, especially sexual crimes, not being collected and preserved. The Commission also notes the loss of potential evidence due to inadequately trained first responders. (That I'm completely fine with. But it presents challenges for verifying incidents, which probably means it's an undercount.) > Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. That is the Hannibal Directive; "the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
- karim79 7mo ago
  The Hannibal directive or the more recent Dayiha Doctrine[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
avh02 7mo ago
Cool, now justify the things happening in the west bank. Israel so peaceful, coexists with neighbors.

harimau777 7mo ago

The issue isn't whether or not Israel started it. It's the genocide they did once it started.

TurdF3rguson 7mo ago
It's really about motive and targeting. Were they trying to get the hostages back or just kill people randomly? Were they targeting Hamas or aid workers?

xg15 7mo ago

If they wanted to go after Hamas, why did they employ methods of combat that were guaranteed to affect civilians, like cutting off the entire strip from food supply? Or the massacre that this thread is about for that matter?

BurningFrog 7mo ago
[flagged]

austin-cheney 7mo ago

Actually a large number of those 1200 were killed by Israeli incendiary rounds fired from helicopters due to Operation Hannibal. It’s why the estimates kept getting rounded down from an initial 1500, because many of the bodies were too badly incinerated to be counted accurately.

ceejayoz 7mo ago
This is a wild enough sounding claim it deserves a cite. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-direc...
BurningFrog 7mo ago
The investigation into this found 14 deaths from Hannibal Directive actions. Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. Report: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-2...
- ceejayoz 7mo ago
  Keep reading, you're missing the next sentences. > The Commission also verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, ISF had likely applied the Hannibal Directive, resulting in the killing of up to 14 Israeli civilians. One woman was killed by ISF helicopter fire while being abducted from Nir Oz to Gaza by militants. In another case the Commission found that Israeli tank fire killed some or all of the 13 civilian hostages held in a house in Be’eri. > The Commission found that Israeli authorities prioritised identifying victims, notifying families and allowing for burial rather than forensic investigation, leading to evidence of crimes, especially sexual crimes, not being collected and preserved. The Commission also notes the loss of potential evidence due to inadequately trained first responders. (That I'm completely fine with. But it presents challenges for verifying incidents, which probably means it's an undercount.) > Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. That is the Hannibal Directive; "the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
karim79 7mo ago
The Hannibal directive or the more recent Dayiha Doctrine[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

avh02 7mo ago

Cool, now justify the things happening in the west bank. Israel so peaceful, coexists with neighbors.