6 ms·

I don't see how that's relevant to the earlier claim, but even this claim of yours is a gross overstatement. There was a partial blockade, not a full blockade,

I don't see how that's relevant to the earlier claim, but even this claim of yours is a gross overstatement. There was a partial blockade, not a full blockade, and this partial blockade came after Palestinians launched the second intifada. Prior to the october 7 massacre, perpetrated by Hamas and gazan civilians, tens of thousands of gazans were able to travel out of gaza through egypt and israel, where many of them worked. nearly 75,000 truckloads of food and cargo went into gaza from israel in 2022. Gaza exported lots too.

xg15 8mo ago
My point is that Israel had full control about exactly what Gaza was allowed to import and export (and frequently used those controls for collective punishment as well) I don't quite see how under those circumstances, they were able to build "a more powerful army than many European countries", unless you talk about Luxembourg or the Vatican. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
- youarentrightjr 8mo ago
  [flagged]
- richardfeynman 8mo ago
  Yes, Israel and Egypt together controlled what Gaza was allowed to import and export - not as a form of collective punishment, but to ensure its own security. There's a huge difference between that and a "full blockade" (which is what Russia did to Mariupol early in the war), so precision matters. In terms of Hamas's army being more powerful than that of many European countries, I'll respond to that below. And the Wikipedia article you cite has been manipulated by a band of ideological editors and is not reliable, and has no value (inverse value?) as a citation.
  - xg15 8mo ago
    The article currently has 361 references. Also the accusation they use it in arbitrary means, for collective punishment is widely shared, not just here. Explain to me how continuously reducing the area permitted for fishing is necessary for Israel's security.
    - xg15 8mo ago
      Also, why is there a quota system on food(!) at all? How does this aid security?
  - DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
    > not as a form of collective punishment, but to ensure its own security Top Israeli officials literally said that the purpose of the blockade was "to put Gaza on a diet."
DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
Why do Israelis always claim the Palestinians launched the 2nd Intifada? The 2nd Intifada was sparked by Israeli massacres of Palestinian civilians.
- richardfeynman 8mo ago
  Calling the Second Intifada "sparked by Israeli massacres" reverses the basic chronology and ignores Palestinian leaders' own admissions. 1) Marwan Barghouti (Fatah leader of the uprising in the West Bank) told The New Yorker in Jan 2001: "The explosion would have happened anyway... But Sharon provided a good excuse." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/01/29/arafats-gift https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/01/29/arafats-gift 2) UK Parliament Hansard (Apr 16, 2002) quotes the semi-official PA daily Al-Ayyam (Dec 6, 2000) reporting PA communications minister Imad al-Falouji: "the Palestinian authority had begun preparations for the outbreak of the current intifada... in accordance with instructions given by Chairman Arafat himself" and that it was not meant merely as a protest over Sharon's visit. https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2002-04-16/debates/d696a1af-a3c2-4bbc-b541-f1b4e1eed6ea/TheMiddleEast https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2002-04-16/debates/d69... (search within the page for "Al-Ayyam" or "Al-Falouji") 3) Arafat's widow Suha said Arafat decided to launch it ("Because I am going to start an Intifada") on Dubai TV, per MEMRI translation, quoted by CFR: https://www.cfr.org/articles/arafat-and-second-intifada https://www.cfr.org/articles/arafat-and-second-intifada https://www.memri.org/tv/suha-arafat-widow-yasser-arafat-2000-intifada-was-premeditated-planned-arafat https://www.memri.org/tv/suha-arafat-widow-yasser-arafat-200... Also, this is not some uniquely Israeli talking point. Britannica describes the start as Palestinians erupting into violence after Sharon's Temple Mount visit: https://www.britannica.com/place/Israel/The-second-intifada https://www.britannica.com/place/Israel/The-second-intifada
  - DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
    The chronology is clear: 1. Ariel Sharon staged a deliberate provocation by storming the Temple Mount with hundreds of policemen. 2. Palestinians protested, and Israeli forces shot live ammunition at them, killing four Palestinian civilians. Within weeks, riots had broken out and Israel had killed dozens of Palestinian civilians. Israeli actions were the spark, not some planned Palestinian operation. The long-term cause of the 2nd Intifada was Israeli refusal to carry out the Oslo Accords in good faith. The Palestinians recognized Israel and agreed to give up the armed struggle for their freedom in exchange for a set process by which Israel would rapidly withdraw from the occupied territories and allow the creation of a Palestinian state. The Israelis repeatedly reneged on that throughout the 1990s, and by 2000, the Palestinians were completely disillusioned with the so-called "Peace Process."

xg15 8mo ago

My point is that Israel had full control about exactly what Gaza was allowed to import and export (and frequently used those controls for collective punishment as well) I don't quite see how under those circumstances, they were able to build "a more powerful army than many European countries", unless you talk about Luxembourg or the Vatican. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

youarentrightjr 8mo ago
[flagged]
richardfeynman 8mo ago
Yes, Israel and Egypt together controlled what Gaza was allowed to import and export - not as a form of collective punishment, but to ensure its own security. There's a huge difference between that and a "full blockade" (which is what Russia did to Mariupol early in the war), so precision matters. In terms of Hamas's army being more powerful than that of many European countries, I'll respond to that below. And the Wikipedia article you cite has been manipulated by a band of ideological editors and is not reliable, and has no value (inverse value?) as a citation.
- xg15 8mo ago
  The article currently has 361 references. Also the accusation they use it in arbitrary means, for collective punishment is widely shared, not just here. Explain to me how continuously reducing the area permitted for fishing is necessary for Israel's security.
  - xg15 8mo ago
    Also, why is there a quota system on food(!) at all? How does this aid security?
- DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
  > not as a form of collective punishment, but to ensure its own security Top Israeli officials literally said that the purpose of the blockade was "to put Gaza on a diet."

DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago

Why do Israelis always claim the Palestinians launched the 2nd Intifada? The 2nd Intifada was sparked by Israeli massacres of Palestinian civilians.

richardfeynman 8mo ago
Calling the Second Intifada "sparked by Israeli massacres" reverses the basic chronology and ignores Palestinian leaders' own admissions. 1) Marwan Barghouti (Fatah leader of the uprising in the West Bank) told The New Yorker in Jan 2001: "The explosion would have happened anyway... But Sharon provided a good excuse." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/01/29/arafats-gift https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/01/29/arafats-gift 2) UK Parliament Hansard (Apr 16, 2002) quotes the semi-official PA daily Al-Ayyam (Dec 6, 2000) reporting PA communications minister Imad al-Falouji: "the Palestinian authority had begun preparations for the outbreak of the current intifada... in accordance with instructions given by Chairman Arafat himself" and that it was not meant merely as a protest over Sharon's visit. https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2002-04-16/debates/d696a1af-a3c2-4bbc-b541-f1b4e1eed6ea/TheMiddleEast https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2002-04-16/debates/d69... (search within the page for "Al-Ayyam" or "Al-Falouji") 3) Arafat's widow Suha said Arafat decided to launch it ("Because I am going to start an Intifada") on Dubai TV, per MEMRI translation, quoted by CFR: https://www.cfr.org/articles/arafat-and-second-intifada https://www.cfr.org/articles/arafat-and-second-intifada https://www.memri.org/tv/suha-arafat-widow-yasser-arafat-2000-intifada-was-premeditated-planned-arafat https://www.memri.org/tv/suha-arafat-widow-yasser-arafat-200... Also, this is not some uniquely Israeli talking point. Britannica describes the start as Palestinians erupting into violence after Sharon's Temple Mount visit: https://www.britannica.com/place/Israel/The-second-intifada https://www.britannica.com/place/Israel/The-second-intifada
- DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
  The chronology is clear: 1. Ariel Sharon staged a deliberate provocation by storming the Temple Mount with hundreds of policemen. 2. Palestinians protested, and Israeli forces shot live ammunition at them, killing four Palestinian civilians. Within weeks, riots had broken out and Israel had killed dozens of Palestinian civilians. Israeli actions were the spark, not some planned Palestinian operation. The long-term cause of the 2nd Intifada was Israeli refusal to carry out the Oslo Accords in good faith. The Palestinians recognized Israel and agreed to give up the armed struggle for their freedom in exchange for a set process by which Israel would rapidly withdraw from the occupied territories and allow the creation of a Palestinian state. The Israelis repeatedly reneged on that throughout the 1990s, and by 2000, the Palestinians were completely disillusioned with the so-called "Peace Process."