4 ms·

Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line

TacticalCoder 8mo ago
> Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line So there's zero link whatsoever between Hamas executing 1200 civilians on Oct 7th, taking 200 hostages, and the following war (and war crimes) of Israel? Israel literally unilaterally began a war and committed war crimes without any act of aggression? And from the moment 200 hostages had been taken, many of whom died in captivity, everything was carved in stone and no matter what Hamas did, Israel was going anyway to war and to commit war crimes? Or did something happen on Oct 7th that triggered all this?
- harimau777 8mo ago
  The issue isn't whether or not Israel started it. It's the genocide they did once it started.
  - TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
    It's really about motive and targeting. Were they trying to get the hostages back or just kill people randomly? Were they targeting Hamas or aid workers?
- xg15 8mo ago
  If they wanted to go after Hamas, why did they employ methods of combat that were guaranteed to affect civilians, like cutting off the entire strip from food supply? Or the massacre that this thread is about for that matter?
  - BurningFrog 8mo ago
    [flagged]
- austin-cheney 8mo ago
  Actually a large number of those 1200 were killed by Israeli incendiary rounds fired from helicopters due to Operation Hannibal. It’s why the estimates kept getting rounded down from an initial 1500, because many of the bodies were too badly incinerated to be counted accurately.
  - ceejayoz 8mo ago
    This is a wild enough sounding claim it deserves a cite. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-direc...
  - BurningFrog 8mo ago
    The investigation into this found 14 deaths from Hannibal Directive actions. Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. Report: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-2...
    - ceejayoz 8mo ago
      Keep reading, you're missing the next sentences. > The Commission also verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, ISF had likely applied the Hannibal Directive, resulting in the killing of up to 14 Israeli civilians. One woman was killed by ISF helicopter fire while being abducted from Nir Oz to Gaza by militants. In another case the Commission found that Israeli tank fire killed some or all of the 13 civilian hostages held in a house in Be’eri. > The Commission found that Israeli authorities prioritised identifying victims, notifying families and allowing for burial rather than forensic investigation, leading to evidence of crimes, especially sexual crimes, not being collected and preserved. The Commission also notes the loss of potential evidence due to inadequately trained first responders. (That I'm completely fine with. But it presents challenges for verifying incidents, which probably means it's an undercount.) > Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. That is the Hannibal Directive; "the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
- avh02 8mo ago
  Cool, now justify the things happening in the west bank. Israel so peaceful, coexists with neighbors.
YZF 8mo ago
There was a second part to that which is "and surrender". But there's definitely been a large reduction in violence since the hostages were returned. Most or all of it in response to violations of the ceasefire by Hamas.
- igravious 8mo ago
  > There was a second part to that which is "and surrender". Honest question. Why should they surrender? > Most or all of it in response to violations of the ceasefire by Hamas. A complete and utter inversion of reality. First page of Google results for: Israel ceasefire violations “How many times has Israel violated the Gaza ceasefire? Here are the numbers: Since the ceasefire took effect, Israeli attacks have killed at least 615 Palestinians and injured 1,658.” https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/11/11/how-many-times-has-israel-violated-the-gaza-ceasefire-here-are-the-numbers https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/11/11/how-many-times-has... “UN experts urge States to act as Israeli violations threaten fragile Gaza ceasefire” https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/11/un-experts-urge-states-act-israeli-violations-threaten-fragile-gaza https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/11/un-experts-u... “Israel has violated ceasefire 47 times and killed 38 Palestinians” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/18/israel-has-violated-ceasefire-47-times-and-killed-38-palestinians-says-gaza-media-office https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/18/israel-has-vio... “Fact Sheet: Israel’s History of Breaking Ceasefires” https://imeu.org/resources/resources/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires/410 https://imeu.org/resources/resources/fact-sheet-israels-hist...
  - BurningFrog 8mo ago
    > Honest question. Why should they surrender? The full statement is something like "to end the war, Hamas only need to return the hostages and surrender". Surrendering is typically what the losing side needs to do to end a war.
  - YZF 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - 8mo ago
TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
> Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line Did the ceasefire not coincide with the return of the hostages? What am I missing?
- Maxious 8mo ago
  Civilian deaths have continued https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-31/israel-strikes-gaza-highest-death-tolls-since-ceasefire/106291744 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-31/israel-strikes-gaza-h...
  - TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
    That article says 30 deaths of "people" not civilians and that the strikes targeted commanders.
    - nagaiaida 8mo ago
      if the ceasefire only applies when targeting civilians, was agreeing to a ceasefire in the first place thus an admission of targeting civilians?
      - TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        justacrow 8mo ago
        It's been a while since I saw that movie, how many sons, daughters and neighbours of those people does he kill, maim and abuse? Assuming he kills several, how many hospital workers trying to help them and journalists documenting his rampage does he kill? I would feel sorry for all of those people.
        TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
        Right, you're supposed to feel sorry for the people who were collateral damage (there were some in the movie). What you're not supposed to feel however, is that he should have went "Oh well..." and let his daughter be sold into sexual slavery.

> Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line So there's zero link whatsoever between Hamas executing 1200 civilians on Oct 7th, taking 200 hostages, and the following war (and war crimes) of Israel? Israel literally unilaterally began a war and committed war crimes without any act of aggression? And from the moment 200 hostages had been taken, many of whom died in captivity, everything was carved in stone and no matter what Hamas did, Israel was going anyway to war and to commit war crimes? Or did something happen on Oct 7th that triggered all this?

harimau777 8mo ago
The issue isn't whether or not Israel started it. It's the genocide they did once it started.
- TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
  It's really about motive and targeting. Were they trying to get the hostages back or just kill people randomly? Were they targeting Hamas or aid workers?
xg15 8mo ago
If they wanted to go after Hamas, why did they employ methods of combat that were guaranteed to affect civilians, like cutting off the entire strip from food supply? Or the massacre that this thread is about for that matter?
- BurningFrog 8mo ago
  [flagged]
austin-cheney 8mo ago
Actually a large number of those 1200 were killed by Israeli incendiary rounds fired from helicopters due to Operation Hannibal. It’s why the estimates kept getting rounded down from an initial 1500, because many of the bodies were too badly incinerated to be counted accurately.
- ceejayoz 8mo ago
  This is a wild enough sounding claim it deserves a cite. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-directive-kidnap-hamas-gaza-hostages-idf/104224430 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/israel-hannibal-direc...
- BurningFrog 8mo ago
  The investigation into this found 14 deaths from Hannibal Directive actions. Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. Report: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-2...
  - ceejayoz 8mo ago
    Keep reading, you're missing the next sentences. > The Commission also verified information indicating that, in at least two other cases, ISF had likely applied the Hannibal Directive, resulting in the killing of up to 14 Israeli civilians. One woman was killed by ISF helicopter fire while being abducted from Nir Oz to Gaza by militants. In another case the Commission found that Israeli tank fire killed some or all of the 13 civilian hostages held in a house in Be’eri. > The Commission found that Israeli authorities prioritised identifying victims, notifying families and allowing for burial rather than forensic investigation, leading to evidence of crimes, especially sexual crimes, not being collected and preserved. The Commission also notes the loss of potential evidence due to inadequately trained first responders. (That I'm completely fine with. But it presents challenges for verifying incidents, which probably means it's an undercount.) > Mostly firing on vehicles carrying hostages. That is the Hannibal Directive; "the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
avh02 8mo ago
Cool, now justify the things happening in the west bank. Israel so peaceful, coexists with neighbors.

YZF 8mo ago

There was a second part to that which is "and surrender". But there's definitely been a large reduction in violence since the hostages were returned. Most or all of it in response to violations of the ceasefire by Hamas.

igravious 8mo ago
> There was a second part to that which is "and surrender". Honest question. Why should they surrender? > Most or all of it in response to violations of the ceasefire by Hamas. A complete and utter inversion of reality. First page of Google results for: Israel ceasefire violations “How many times has Israel violated the Gaza ceasefire? Here are the numbers: Since the ceasefire took effect, Israeli attacks have killed at least 615 Palestinians and injured 1,658.” https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/11/11/how-many-times-has-israel-violated-the-gaza-ceasefire-here-are-the-numbers https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/11/11/how-many-times-has... “UN experts urge States to act as Israeli violations threaten fragile Gaza ceasefire” https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/11/un-experts-urge-states-act-israeli-violations-threaten-fragile-gaza https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/11/un-experts-u... “Israel has violated ceasefire 47 times and killed 38 Palestinians” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/18/israel-has-violated-ceasefire-47-times-and-killed-38-palestinians-says-gaza-media-office https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/18/israel-has-vio... “Fact Sheet: Israel’s History of Breaking Ceasefires” https://imeu.org/resources/resources/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires/410 https://imeu.org/resources/resources/fact-sheet-israels-hist...
- BurningFrog 8mo ago
  > Honest question. Why should they surrender? The full statement is something like "to end the war, Hamas only need to return the hostages and surrender". Surrendering is typically what the losing side needs to do to end a war.
- YZF 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - 8mo ago

TurdF3rguson 8mo ago

> Don’t forget the “all they have to do is return the hostages” line Did the ceasefire not coincide with the return of the hostages? What am I missing?

Maxious 8mo ago
Civilian deaths have continued https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-31/israel-strikes-gaza-highest-death-tolls-since-ceasefire/106291744 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-31/israel-strikes-gaza-h...
- TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
  That article says 30 deaths of "people" not civilians and that the strikes targeted commanders.
  - nagaiaida 8mo ago
    if the ceasefire only applies when targeting civilians, was agreeing to a ceasefire in the first place thus an admission of targeting civilians?
    - TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
      [flagged]
      - justacrow 8mo ago
        It's been a while since I saw that movie, how many sons, daughters and neighbours of those people does he kill, maim and abuse? Assuming he kills several, how many hospital workers trying to help them and journalists documenting his rampage does he kill? I would feel sorry for all of those people.
        TurdF3rguson 8mo ago
        Right, you're supposed to feel sorry for the people who were collateral damage (there were some in the movie). What you're not supposed to feel however, is that he should have went "Oh well..." and let his daughter be sold into sexual slavery.