11 ms·

Scott Forstall leaves Apple

470 points by FredericJ 14y ago

bengl3rt 14y ago
Another upside: iOS and OS X are now both run by the same person. Hopefully this means that when there is convergence/overlap between the two platforms, it will be done more thoughtfully, rather than taking something from one and awkwardly bolting it onto the other one a la Launchpad.
Toddward 14y ago
John Browett is leaving too - that didn't last long.
w1ntermute 14y ago
Looks like he got shitcanned for the Maps fiasco.
- mpweiher 14y ago
  Sounds more like the outcome of a long and bloody power struggle to me, though the maps fiasco may have helped decide the outcome.
- Gring 14y ago
  The problem with maps is the back-end data, which he was't responsible for, as far as I know.
yzap 14y ago
Sacked for Apple Maps?
deleted 14y ago
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FredericJ 14y ago
Can't wait to read this thread on Quora. http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/Why-is-Scott-Forstall-leaving-Apple http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/Why-is-Scott-Forstall-leavi...
- FredericJ 14y ago
  Already a few interesting answers
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- gergles 14y ago
  I'd love to read it too. Unfortunately, I can't: """ Sign in to read this page. You may only read Quora content while logged in. Sign In with Facebook I Already Have a Quora Account Why do I need to join to read this? Quora is a knowledge-sharing community that depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. """ I'm going to put out a request to 'stop linking to Quora', because we readily decry this shit when expertsexchange does it, but when a Valley Darling does it, it's OK? (Interestingly, they're A/Bing 'forced' login - when I loaded the page again in an incognito window, a "Cancel" option suddenly appeared.) (Edit: the cancel option is worthless, every answer is unreadable and covered with: """ Join Quora for free to read this answer. Connect to Facebook Connect to Twitter Connecting helps us surface content that is relevant to you. We'll never post without your permission. I don't have a Facebook or Twitter account. )"""
msbarnett 14y ago
Ive heading up "Human Interface" now. Say goodbye to the Rich Corinthian Leather on every third App.
- rolando 14y ago
  hallelujah!
- gsibble 14y ago
  Corinth if famous for its leather! /Archer
arrrg 14y ago
Jony Ive is now responsible for HI guidelines across the company? That could turn out great or horrible. (I'm not sure whether obviously great hardware designers can also be great UI designers.) I'm optimistic for now. Hopefully that means bye bye overt skeumorphism. (I do think Apple's UIs have in the past always been above average, sometimes excellent. Their fashion choices, however, have at times been horrible. It would be great if Apple could change the second, not necessarily the first part.)
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  The man's got taste. That's good enough for me. Though I fear that it probably is "bye bye overt skeumorphism", but what if the new ideology is "hello excessive minimalism/removing every last pro feature left"? Let's hope not. I don't use iCal or Address Book much, so I don't hate that stupid skeumorphism like the rest of the world (I like it though when it's used sparingly and isn't just keep getting in your way)...
  - glhaynes 14y ago
    Though I fear that it's "bye bye overt skeumorphism" for sure, but maybe it's "hello excessive minimalism/removing every last feature"? Let's hope not. Well said. Ive's aesthetic has certainly worked for the hardware line. Even if for nothing else than just the novelty of seeing what they'll put out, I'm delighted to see him take over all HI.
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    The man's got taste. That was true of Jobs as well... but holy crap, have you seen his yacht? Unfortunately, good aesthetic judgement in one area doesn't always carry over into other areas, even those that seem closely related. Human-machine interfaces have a functional aspect that can't be handled by dashing off yet another homage to Dieter Rams. Ive hasn't yet shown competence in this aspect of design.
    - masklinn 14y ago
      > That was true of Jobs as well... but holy crap, have you seen his yacht? On the other hand, have you seen the designs the approved for the future HQ?
deleted 14y ago
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feverishaaron 14y ago
Interesting that Jony will be overseeing UI. I expect a more minimalistic polish to upcoming interfaces. In other words, this is the beginning of the end for the skeuomorphism trend at Apple.
- bengl3rt 14y ago
  Yes, it's widely known that Ive was one of the most strongly opposed to skeuomorphism whereas Forstall was one of its biggest proponents within the company.
- mikesun 14y ago
  happy for this move. i was actually starting to envy microsoft's metro design aesthetic and loathe the changes that came in every new os x release.
- jitl 14y ago
  I'm very excited about this. I left the Apple ecosystem over thier poorly-designed skeuomorphic interfaces (iCal and Address Book in Lion being very frustrating). I love the hardware, though, and I'm excited for a return to UX on par with that hardware.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  No. It's not UI, it's HI (Human Interface) now! It's best we all get used to it. It'll be repeated again and again from now on :) Edit: This is what I mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interface > Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for _Human Interface_ in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings. It's still a non-word, but will be an (oft-used) word soon enough (like that damn skeumorphism thing).
  - defap 14y ago
    Apple has used the term HI for a long, long time.
emehrkay 14y ago
Wasnt he supposed to be the next Steve Jobs? He was noticeably missing from the last event. It was strange that they didnt have ios updates to talk about (that is when he gets on stage).
- sjwright 14y ago
  My observation was that Scott wanted to be the next Steve, with his autoskeuomorphic behavior. That he spent the last 15 years working for Steve is probably also a factor here. I think some people assume he was being groomed for that position, but I never sensed that.
kristopher 14y ago
While mere speculation, I do not think he is leaving over Maps directly. I personally think there was internal tension over making sir Jony head of leadership and direction for Human Interface and he quit over that -- also there is the possibility that he was perhaps looking to run Apple as CEO at some point but that does not seem to be in the cards.
rbn 14y ago
I'm expecting a move away from Skeuomorphism towards minimalism now that Jony Ive is the head of "Human Interface"
jakespencer 14y ago
Wow, this is great news all around. Jony Ive can only improve the Human Interfaces we've seen, and although he was obviously good at a lot of things, Forstall did tend to over-promise and under-deliver (Siri, Maps). This makes me feel great about Cook as CEO.
- jakespencer 14y ago
  And good riddance to Browett.
apike 14y ago
> Scott Forstall will be leaving Apple next year > Jony Ive will provide leadership and direction for Human Interface (HI) across the company And thus ended the reign of skeuomorphism at Apple. Or, at least, the reign of hyper-realism and hyper-whimsy in UI design. Jobs or Forstall always seemed to favour it, but could you imagine Jony Ive signing off on a Podcasts app where half the screen is a reel-to-reel tape that bounces when you pause?
- zach 14y ago
  That's what's so weird, though — that particular reel-to-reel design actually seems like a deliberate combination of both influences. The skeuomorphic look of Podcasts was based on a physical product design by Ive's legendary design influence, Dieter Rams: http://www.cultofmac.com/176008/heres-the-braun-tape-recorder-that-inspired-apples-podcasts-app-gallery/ http://www.cultofmac.com/176008/heres-the-braun-tape-recorde... In retrospect, the tension inherent in this odd compromise seems palpable. It's like listening to the last album a band releases before they break up.
  - jarek 14y ago
    Skeuomorphing physical objects designed by Rams is still skeuomorphing.
    - fleitz 14y ago
      Skeuomorphic design is rarely as little design as possible which is what makes the podcast design so iconic... er.. ironic.
      - 89a 14y ago
        Same goes for this stupid piece of shit http://www.wthr.co http://www.wthr.co
        jarek 14y ago
        I was so confused when I saw that app a couple of months back. Why spend so much effort creating an admittedly aesthetically pleasing design, name check Rams and his principles, and so completely miss the point of "as little design as possible" and have a non-functional spinner display for the current conditions? And having such a prominent °F/°C switch is just baffling. This is not a function used regularly by the vast majority of users.
pycassa 14y ago
man behind skeuomorphism in apple's ios? I remember watching him in a keynote showing the piano app on iphone when they announced appstore/iphone. I was blown away by that demo.. those were the days maan..
mwc 14y ago
Interesting to see confirmation of Bob Mansfield's continued role in the company. He'll lead a new group, "Technologies", responsible for wireless and semis.
- apike 14y ago
  It's unusual for Apple to hype something like this, but in that note they mention Mansfield's semiconductor team "have ambitious plans for the future". I doubt that simply refers to making the A7 faster and more power-efficient.
  - djcapelis 14y ago
    Apple's semiconductor plans have always been something that's been interesting to watch develop over the last few years. I was wondering what they were going to throw Mansfield on ever since they appointed his replacement and just designated him as basically someone who was going to work on a special project. Sounds like a thrust towards driving Apple deeper into the bottom of the hardware stack to me. Apple currently is very good at setting up good solid deep relationships with hardware suppliers and designing lots of stuff to make things work together. But they've been pushing further and further down the stack ever since the PASemi acquisition. I wonder when they're going to start building fabs. It seems like if you've got >$30B sitting around, devoting a VP to making a new team and are worried about your competitors controlling your supply chains for memories and other core technologies... I guess we're going to find out. If I'm right, the earliest indicators will probably be hiring the types of people you'd need to spin up serious fabs.
  - Geee 14y ago
    ARM on desktop, perhaps? No one has ever designed a desktop-class chip with ARM architecture, so that's one 'ambitious' direction one could take.
    - watmough 14y ago
      Hahahaha. So you've never heard about what the ARM was originally designed for? http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Computers/A500.html http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Computers/A500.html I guess that was a while ago! And it certainly was desktop-class. It beat the pants off a 12 MHz 286.
mratzloff 14y ago
He oversaw Siri and Maps, two products which over-promised and under-delivered, and six months ago he cashed out 95% of his Apple stock. I think it was evident he lost the power struggle and it killed his enthusiasm. His heart just wasn't in it anymore.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  That's interesting, do you have a source for the stock cash-out?
  - mratzloff 14y ago
    Sure. Here you go: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57425920-37/apple-exec-scott-forstall-sells-off-95-percent-of-his-shares/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57425920-37/apple-exec-sco...
    - ricardobeat 14y ago
      Thanks! Interesting quote: Although a major sell-off can sometimes mean an executive is leaving a company, that might not be the case with Forstall. I wonder why this didn't generate any rumours of his departure at the time?
      - jason_slack 14y ago
        I think this is more interesting: "Forstall has made it abundantly clear inside Cupertino that he would like to eventually be Apple's chief executive, adding that "he wears his ambition in plainer view than the typical Apple executive.""
        fudged71 14y ago
        Power struggle. It'll be interesting to see where he goes next.
  - bonzoesc 14y ago
aaronbrethorst 14y ago
Interesting timing on the announcement, given that the stock market is closed today and likely tomorrow too. As both a fan and shareholder of Apple, I'm very pleased to hear Browett is out. The stories that came out a couple months ago about the changes in Apple Retail did fill me with admiration for his management style. Also, given how Forstall is described in a Business Week profile[1], and that Bob Mansfield is not only sticking around, but heading up a new team, I wonder if Mansfield laid out an ultimatum to Tim Cook about 'him or me'. [1] http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorc...
- dave1619 14y ago
  Regarding Mansfield, it's interesting that Apple announced his retirement a few months ago: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/06/28Bob-Mansfield-Apples-Senior-Vice-President-of-Hardware-Engineering-to-Retire.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/06/28Bob-Mansfield-Appl... Then Cook convinced Mansfield to "unretire" and become an advisor: http://gigaom.com/apple/shedding-light-on-apple-exec-drama-why-svp-bob-mansfield-unretired/ http://gigaom.com/apple/shedding-light-on-apple-exec-drama-w... And now, Mansfield heads up a huge new group called Technologies (wireless, semiconductor, etc). What a roller coaster for Mansfield... but not just him, the entire management team because they're all working together and dependent on each other.
  - nirvana 14y ago
    I think retaining key talent is one of Tim Cooks' most important jobs... and this shows pretty clearly that Mansfield was tired of his previous job, wanted to retire, and Tim found a way to create a position that interested him, or at least, would keep him around for a couple more years. And this new section, I think, could be really important. Apple has been really innovating in silicon and wireless technologies, and they're at a point where this will increasingly be the source of key competitive advantages. I suspect Mansfield's job is to integrate this division, get it whipped into shape and then recruit a replacement to lead it.
- wilfra 14y ago
aganek 14y ago
Bold action often results in great things. Apple has always strived to couple great hardware design with great software. Excited to see them bring the two departments closer again.
k-mcgrady 14y ago
John Browett didn't last long. Jony Ive overseeing UI should be interesting and might bring an end to the skeuomorphism bug at Apple. I wonder how this will affect iOS. Forstall has been in charge from the beginning (afaik) so we might see some big changes and even better integration with OS X now that Craig Federighi is in charge of both teams. Edit: I wonder if Forstall's departure has anything to do with Mansfield staying on?
mukaiji 14y ago
So... can we now all agree that Tim Cook is a good CEO?
- glhaynes 14y ago
  Jury's still out at this point[1], but this certainly makes me optimistic. Or, at the very least, intensely interested in what this new arrangement will yield. [1] He seems to certainly not be a bad CEO if we're talking about the set {All CEOs}. But you'd have to be really really good to not look awful if you're following Jobs.
- pdenya 14y ago
  I don't know if anyone ever doubted Tim Cook as a good/credible CEO. The only issue is whether or not he can be jobs-level which is unlikely but remains to be seen.
  - sigzero 14y ago
    I think jobs-level is unattainable really. I am just hoping Cook is a consistently great CEO.
- adamneilson 14y ago
  To take the scalpe of the "mini-Steve" AKA "CEO in waiting" shows an adeptness at self-preservation if nothing else. (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorc...)
- chj 14y ago
  Yes, as long as he's not giving presentation.
nachteilig 14y ago
I'm actually surprised that they allowed John Browett to receive his first batch of grants before they showed him the door. Didn't seem like he had long after some of his recent communication problems.
- r00fus 14y ago
  I'm not - it's part of the requirement to provide some renumeration (esp. in stock) for departing executives regardless of tenure as their inside knowledge is very dangerous in the wrong hands. It's also a lesson to the hiring team: you know you'll be paying some decent compensation regardless of who you hire or for how long, so learn to do your job well and hire the right person. Ounce of prevention and all that.
mukaiji 14y ago
Just to be clear, he's not "leaving." He got fired. He got fired because after the map fiasco became apparent, he refused to send out an apology or sign his name to the one Tim Cook sent. (internal knowledge)
- jusben1369 14y ago
  Not sure if that's true or not but there's probably more to it than just that correct?
  - mukaiji 14y ago
    Well he wasn't very liked either.
    - pooriaazimi 14y ago
      By whom? The (upper) management, or his team?
      - mukaiji 14y ago
        Both.
- gsibble 14y ago
  Apple Security is probably outside your house as I write this.
- wisty 14y ago
  (No internal knowledge) I'm surprised he got fired over maps. Mapping is hard - comparable to writing a search engine. Apple did as well as can be expected for a first attempt. They had some kind of problem with Google Maps, and wanted to build their own capability, which was never going to be easy. He might have been fired if he cheated, by creating a well curated Valley dataset to prove to the other execs what a great job he'd done. That would annoy people. I've heard rumors that he was seen as "better managing up than down" (impressing his boss, at the expense of results), and that doesn't strike me as something Tim Cook would like very much (both from his reported management style, and the number of stock options he has). I can see that being a last straw from Tim - "You screwed up, now own up to it. Or else."
jordhy 14y ago
I feel very sorry for Apple. Scott was a major catalyst that made things happen at the company.
- Uhhrrr 14y ago
  His functions are being taken over by people who make good things happen at the company.
- objclxt 14y ago
  ...but on the other hand, there's been speculation for years that his management style was very bad, and the source of frustration in the engineering teams, as well as his friction with the industrial design team.
  - jarek 14y ago
    So he was just like Steve then?
martin_bech 14y ago
At first I was shocked by the headline, but after reading the story, I actually think, this could be amazing. Getting Jony Ive to oversee both industrial and software design, could lead to something very exciting, that provides the innovation, the software, has been lacking. I have full confidence, in Eddy Cue, Craig, and Bob their new roles, and hope this means Bob will stay on longer. As per the direct no apology firing of Browett.. Sweet! I was actually hoping for that. I was insane to gamble with the Apple stores reputation and service for a litle more margin. Having now seen a Dixons, I have no idea, why he was hired
lanna 14y ago
Hooray!
benguild 14y ago
I'm relieved about this. Pretty much all of the missteps at Apple that I've cared about were related to this guy. I'm confident that Ive will clear things up soon.
dm8 14y ago
Looks like Maps fiasco was too much to handle. Didn't they ask their SVP of hardware to leave when they had antennagate?
ricardobeat 14y ago
Most interesting part: John Browett is leaving Apple So his views on retail really did not fit Apple after all.
- 89a 14y ago
  Not that interesting, anyone familiar with his work could tell you he's a bad fit
archgrove 14y ago
Anyone who A) likes Apple and B) has ever been in a Dixons store in the UK will be overjoyed with the other departure, Browett (head of retail and previous Dixons CEO) who is leaving immediately (compared to Forstall's year long "transition" departure). Dixons is everything that Apple should never be; terrible customer service, clueless minimum wage staff, horrible retail experience, and generally used only by people who desperately need something immediately or are too naive to find another store. Recent news out of Apple regarding "cutbacks" at retail suggested he was nudging them in the same direction. Given that he got his first stock disbursement last week and was due $58 million over the next few years if he hung around, I'm guessing he was pushed. Great decision from Cook if that was the case.
- nagrom 14y ago
  It's worth noting that Dixon's eventually scaled back its high-street presence completely and is now found only in airports. If his role at Dixon's was what got him a job at Apple, I'd be really surprised!
  - bruceboughton 14y ago
    Not exactly. Dixons branches were re-branded as Currys.digital and there are plenty of those.
  - aes256 14y ago
    Dixons is just one brand of Dixons Retail (formerly DSG International) which also owns Currys, PC World, etc. They rebranded all their high street stores to Currys.digital, and although store numbers have been declining, they are still a regular fixture on high streets.
    - mibbitier 14y ago
      That would explain why Currys and PC World are also ridiculously awful. Every time I go into one of those shops, it's because I need something immediately, to take away. They never have it in stock, and ask if I'd like to order it. If I wanted to order it, I'd do it myself, online.
enraged_camel 14y ago
I wonder what this means for the possibility of future Apple devices having haptic touchscreens. edit: What was the downvote for?!
matheusalmeida 14y ago
Given that 50% of the posts talk about skeuomorphism and honestly I didn't know what it was, here's the definition from Wikipedia: "A skeuomorph, or skeuomorphism is when a product imitates design elements functionally necessary in the original product design, but that becomes ornamental in the new product design".
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  It's a new word for an old concept: a decorative anachronism. Obvious examples from outside the world of computing include stone pillars in front of important buildings, and rivets on jeans. It's abused here on HN as short-hand for app decorations that people don't like, like the infamous leather treatment on the calendar. But there are plenty of "skeuomorphic" aspects to iOS that I never see anyone complain about (and sometimes compliment), like inertial scrolling or sliding on/off switches.
  - sigzero 14y ago
    I don't think it will all go. I think the stuff like faux leather interfaces will though.
  - Gravityloss 14y ago
    Inertial scrolling is tremendously useful, you can scroll more with fewer swipes.
mlchild 14y ago
People's reactions to this announcement are overly focused on Forstall's assumed support for heavy skeumorphism (and their excitement at his departure as lead proponent). I think his record as head of iOS since its inception is a much more salient issue. Forstall led development of the fastest-growing, most popular computing platform of the past decade or so with, to be sure, a few notable screw-ups, but mostly incredible innovation and efficiency. While his departure does sound like the result of a power struggle that needed to be resolved, I really believe we're shortchanging his incredible achievements. Forstall's departure is not unequivocally or even clearly a victory for those who are firm believers in iOS and its ecosystem going forward. The only reasonable reaction is that we'll have to wait and see.
- sounds 14y ago
  The thing about Forstall's achievements is he did them all under the shadow of Steve Jobs. Is it that he had to take a more active role now, and not just be a Jobs man? Is it that Jobs could bring talented people together and keep them there and Tim Cook is failing to do that? I'm almost certain it's neither of those, but they serve to illustrate the point: when people think of iOS, Scott Forstall is not even close to the first person they think of giving credit to.
  - mlchild 14y ago
    I agree that probably neither or those explanations is fully true, but I do believe that Jobs had the ability to harness conflicting personalities towards greater goals. I do disagree with your last point, though —— I've watched every keynote for the past 6-7 years and Forstall has rocked the iOS presentations. Perhaps I'm biased, but I very deeply associate him with the greatness of iOS, particularly Apple's ability to steadily pick off the "low-hanging fruit" features (e.g. 3rd party apps in 2.0, copy-and-paste, PC-free) with regularity and elegance.
- deleted 14y ago
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- snowwrestler 14y ago
  Excellent perspective. Apple is not going to succeed or fail based on skeuomorphism. The iPhone and iPad have reached their success in large part because of the tremendous capability and growth of iOS, and Scott Forstall led those efforts. Yes a power struggle seems to be resolved, but Forstall's departure could turn out to be a big loss for Apple.
danilocampos 14y ago
Interesting that Eddie Cue remains the company fixer, taking on the quirky Siri and the flakey Maps app just as he was once given a completely fucked up MobileMe. This is good news. Even better news is Browett's ouster. The business with his cutting operational corners in retail was a very, very bad omen. If they'd left him in, he might have poisoned a very important well for the company. Hopefully his replacement is closer to Ron Johnson's set of retail and service values. N'bad, Tim.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - jcoder 14y ago
    That's what he said.
  - pledge 14y ago
    That's what your parent said.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- dave1619 14y ago
  Eddy Cue is also the one responsible for getting Apple to make a 7"-8" tablet: http://allthingsd.com/20120803/apples-eddy-cue-saw-market-for-7-inch-tablet-in-2011-said-should-do-one/ http://allthingsd.com/20120803/apples-eddy-cue-saw-market-fo...
- Steko 14y ago
  As much as Apple's software and hardware are talked about, Eddie Cue is also the guy largely responsible for negotiating Apple's superior media offerings which is arguably Apple's biggest lead on their competitors internationally.
  - danilocampos 14y ago
    No kidding! Anywhere you can recommend I read more about this?
kmfrk 14y ago
This makes me incredibly excited for Apple. I would rather that Siri and Maps hadn't belly-flopped the way they did, but iOS is getting really long in the tooth, and Apple have made some seriously weird design decisions with the platform.
ececconi 14y ago
Everybody here talks about Ive being opposed to skeuomorphism , does anybody have any examples of what the UI would look like under the leadership of his design principles? I can't even imagine it.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- rahoulb 14y ago
  Like this? http://wthr.co/ http://wthr.co/ (although I have to say, it looks beautiful but is an awful app)
  - jarek 14y ago
    God save the design world if an app with a spinner display for non-linear, non-rotational, non-user-controlled data and a prominent switch that maybe 5% of the users will use more than once is the future of Apple's UI.
panacea 14y ago
Everyone's mentioning Maps/Siri, but my most recent disappointment with an Apple product is the UI, performance and structure of Game Center for iOS. I've never been inclined to use it before the recent release of Letterpress which necessitates its use and it a steaming pile of you-know-what. It's so jarring going from the lovely minimalism of the Letterpress game into parts of Game Center to manage match/friend requests. It's the sort of experience that's had me worried about Apple, and this is (tentatively) good news, as I gather he was heading up the part of Apple responsible for such products.
jonknee 14y ago
Scott Forstall is already rich thanks to Apple, but he lost a lot of money by being fired. 75,000 RSUs vesting in 2013, 100,000 RSUs to vest in 2014, and 75,000 in 2016. That's a lot of dough ($151M at today's share price).
dave1619 14y ago
Here are the major changes announced: 1. Jony Ive's role is expanded from Industrial Design to Industrial Design AND Human Interface. In other words, Ive is the new Design chief for hardware and software. This is huge. 2. Scott Forstall is out (after an interim advising role to Tim Cook). iOS goes to Craig Federighi who already oversees Mac OS. So, now iOS and Mac OS are overseen by the same person. 3. Eddy Cue's role is expanded (he previously was in charge of iTunes, App Store, iBookStore, iCloud). He now also oversees Siri and Maps. 4. Bob Mansfield will lead a new group called Technologies (wireless and semiconductor). 5. John Browett of retail is out. Overall, I view this move as extremely positive. Tim Cook just elevated his most reliable and capable SVPs to assume more leadership role. John Ive, Eddy Cue, Mansfield and Federighi have all proven to be pretty spectacular. Ive with industrial design, Cue with iTunes/AppStore/iCloud, Mansfield with hardware and Federighi with Mac OS. Further, Tim Cook gets rid of his problem SVPs - namely Browett who didn't match the culture of Apple... and Scott Forstall (who advanced iOS in huge ways) but reportedly had problems with getting along with other SVPs and also who disappointed users with iOS6/Maps (and also in my opinion poorly designed and implemented Apple apps... appstore reviews for Apple apps have gone significantly down the last year or two). Cook will probably give Forstall a good severance package with an agreement that Forstall doesn't go to a mobile OS competitor. I'm actually more optimistic on Apple with this bold management shakeup. Tim Cook is showing the moves of a bold leader... and it's exactly what Apple needs.
- sigzero 14y ago
  I agree! I only see good in these moves.
- guiambros 14y ago
  Great summary, thanks. Important to mention (you did already, but just to emphasize) that Scott Forstall will be "advisor to CEO Tim Cook in the interim". Interim meaning more specifically 6 months, till April 2013. This should allow him to cash in some thousands of stock options, which will serve as a natural non-competitive package. Which would be very fair, given his role in re-shaping Apple over all these years.
ececconi 14y ago
I think one of the worst examples of UI design by Apple is the iCloud website. It's just so slow and clunky. I can't believe more people aren't complaining about it.
- chj 14y ago
  Yes, it is slow and clunky, but better alternatives are next door. So why complain?
  - ececconi 14y ago
    I actually like to use it for the calendar and the notes.
- flxmglrb 14y ago
  No one uses it, that's why. Meanwhile, I saw a Microsoft Surface demo at the mall yesterday and their approach to photo sharing via "SkyDrive" is FAR simpler and easier to use than Apple's. You know you're in trouble when MS has better usability than you. Not a good sign.
nostromo 14y ago
Does anyone but me here listen incessantly to podcasts? The latest Podcasts App from iTunes is a skeuomorphic mess. It has a superfluous animation of a reel-to-reel player of course. But it utterly fails at its most basic task: playing a goddamn podcast. But don't take my word for it, it has a 1.5 star rating on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/podcasts/id525463029 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/podcasts/id525463029 Not to mention crashes... Apple used to make jokes about the Windows blue screen of death. Well, that's my new day-to-day experience with iOS apps. I'm constantly restarting crashed apps over and over. Honestly, this is good news if Forstall really is the driving force behind the deteriorating user experience of many apps.
- ciniglio 14y ago
  You likely know this already, but Downcast is an awesome podcast app, it has location based downloading as well, which is great if you're a commuter. (I also listen to a lot of podcasts and have been disappointed by the Apple Podcast app).
- whatusername 14y ago
  On a suggestion from my father - I downloaded the 'downcast" app. $2 well spent in my opinion.
  - da_n 14y ago
    I have tried almost all the podcast apps at this stage (sinking about $15-20) and although Downcasts is great (my number 2 choice) I recently found myself prefering the lesser known Pocket Casts. The best feature by far is they poll the feeds on their own servers and push notifications to you (I know Instacast is supposed to do this but I didn't find it very reliable and Instacast had many other problems for me). Pocket Casts very rarely crashes (with over 60 podcasts subscribed), resumes/pauses system-wide reliably and instantly, has a nice responsive UI (even on my iPhone 4) and has full import/export OPML so you aren't stuck with them. No affiliation.
- mukaiji 14y ago
  Can't up vote this comment either. Just the reel to reel player is a joke.
uladzislau 14y ago
The writing was on the wall: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem? http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/09/29/does-apple-have-a-scott-forstall-problem/ http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/09/29/does-apple-have-a-sco... Apple Retail Leadership Tells Stores It 'Messed Up' Employee Working Hours, Refutes Layoffs http://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-retail-leadership-tells-stores-it-messed-up-employee-working-hours-refutes-layoffs-20120816-00774 http://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-retail-leadership-tells-...
Tycho 14y ago
Shame. He had great stage presence at the Apple shows.
revelation 14y ago
I'm not an Apple insider. Pushing Google Maps away seems to me like a political decision reserved for someone like Cook, not Forstall. If Cook shoved Google out and tasked Forstall with the impossible task of developing a better maps offering in what amounts to a year, this would be a sign that upper management jumped the shark, not Forstall himself.
- twoodfin 14y ago
  The mapping project is much older than a year. Apple bought Placebase in July, 2009.
- bronxbomber92 14y ago
  Maps was started while Jobs was around, so at the very least you can't accuse Cook of that.
- 89a 14y ago
  More like 3 years but still impossible
sk2code 14y ago
I guess this is the serious blow to Apple. Many people across the board will reconsider their position with the shares of APPL. Time to take the profit.
smegel 14y ago
Can everyone saying "it's unfair to dump him due to Maps, because mapping is hard" realize it has nothing to do with the quality of the application, but the quality (or lack thereof) of the PR and management of customer expectations. If Apple had come out 3 months before iPhone5 and said "Look, we really need to divorce ourselves from Google Maps as we can't be relying on an arch-competitor for such an important service, but please be aware that our new Maps app will have issues for several months as we work out the kinks based on customer feedback", and reinforced that message several times, the issue would have been close to a non-issue - and I think most people would have understood. Instead they came out and said "new Maps is the greatest thing since sliced bread!" (paraphrasing) which was downright wrong and people rightly felt let down.
- bennyg 14y ago
  I don't know about that PR move you suggested. It's not very becoming of the market leader to publicly express that their own product that hasn't launched yet, and won't for 3 months, is buggy and incomplete - and to be patient with them while it gets fixed. I don't agree that calling it the best ever was such a great move, but that's what Apple does. In a couple years, it won't matter what happened with the Maps launch. It'll be great by then. And nobody will be talking about it - just like 0 "average consumers" talk about antennagate.
  - smegel 14y ago
    It's not very becoming either that the CEO of such an image concious company has to make a such grovelling apology for such an embarrassing failure... I agree that in the long term Maps will be great and people will have forgotten the ill-planned launch - except perhaps Scott Forstall.
    - bennyg 14y ago
      You're right too, but that's a better move than a preemptive apology. They have the "report a problem" feature in the Maps app too, so it should help organically grow. I do miss Scott Forstall on stage, he was a good presenter.
deleted 14y ago
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stevewillows 14y ago
Is there a chance that the move away from skeuomorphism and putting OSX and IOS under one umbrella is a response to the direction Microsoft is taking with Windows 8?
pdknsk 14y ago
Who wants to bet that Marissa called him already? Seems like the perfect fit for the new Yahoo mobile oriented strategy, does it not? I have no clue to be honest.
- e1ven 14y ago
  Keep in mind he has a year transition period at Apple. After that, Apple likely gave him a list of verboten companies as part of the severance. Google is certainly on that list. Yahoo may or may not.
camus 14y ago
I cant wait to hear reactions from the fanboys when Cook is out : "Oh yeah , best opportunity ever for Apple...", Whatever Apple does is ,strangely ,always a good decision from its followers perspective...
nirvana 14y ago
It wasn't always obvious that Cook would be the CEO of Apple after Jobs left. This is the job Forstall wanted, but that Apple didn't want him for. The job went to Cook, and so Forstall was either going to have to find a place to be happy in Apple or he'd be on his way out. This gives a smooth transition to the large teams under him over the next year or so, in exchange for more vesting of his shares. People saying this is about Maps or Siri or Skoumorphism are focusing on relatively petty issues. This is about how is going to be the leader of Apple. Tim Cook turned out to not just be the interim CEO, and waiting a year for the transition is respectful all around-- and is enough time for everyone to know what the right direction for their lives is. Forstall may want to do a startup-- where he'd certainly be a CEO.
Bud 14y ago
Nobody's posted this yet, so I'll give it a try. Dear Scott, Could you please start up NeXT again? That would really rock. Thanks, Bud
- wilfra 14y ago
  Forstall was the executive most like Steve Jobs within the company, so it will be interesting to see what he does next. He got forced out, just like Steve did. Now will he start a new company and get acquired and become the CEO down the road?
deleted 14y ago
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wisty 14y ago
I think there's a few layers to this: 1) Forstall apparently wants to be CEO, and run the company. That puts him at odds with Cook (the CEO), and Ive (who wants to drive Apple's design decisions). 2) He's divisive. There's claims that neither Jonny Ive nor Bob Mansfield would talk to him without Tim Cook mediating. There's also claims that he "managed up" (showed off to the boss) better than he "managed down", and stole credit while deflecting critisism. 3) He was the guy in charge of Siri and Maps. 4) He was probably the one driving the post-Jobs war with Google. Siri and Maps are Apple's way of fighting Google. Siri competes with Google Search, and Maps competes with Google Maps. There are reasons why Apple wants to spite Google, but the whole strategy could also be Scot Forstall's way of creating his own empire in Apple. Going head to head with Google requires lots of resources, which would all be under Forstall's command. I don't think it's a good gamble for Apple. Google doesn't really hate Apple. I bet they'll port everything they can to iOS, as long as they can keep pushing their ads. Nexus might see Apple as a competitor, but Nexus isn't worth as much as adwords. As Eric Schmidt said in an interview - "It's their call". If Apple goes down the path Forstall wants, they'll be going head to head with Google in the things Google is best at. If they stop trying to turn into a data / AI company, they can focus on what they do best - making easy to use devices which sell like hotcakes, and command a fat profit margin. Android will hurt them, but as long as they focus on their core strengths (hardware, marketing, industrial design, interface design, and integration) they'll continue to do pretty well. They milked the iPod for a decade, despite there being plenty of better value competitors. They can do the same with the iPhone. They can do the same with whatever the next big thing is. I'd say going to war with Google will be at best a waste of time, and most likely a string of humiliating losses.
- seldo 14y ago
  I regret that I have but one vote to give this analysis. Spot on.
- niels_olson 14y ago
  Spot on. I can't help but add that on the day Apple is getting a lot unwanted press, the company you paint as Forstall's rival, Google, is also on HN front page with a remarkably quiet announcement of a $399 10" 300 dpi tablet. I hope this marks a low for Apple. All things considered, they could do a lot worse. Hopefully they will only keep improving.
18pfsmt 14y ago
Lots of supposition and subjectivity. I'm pretty much clueless on this topic, but from a quick scan this seems like pure gossip. I've learned nothing at all except for various HN opinions, and I have trouble understanding if and/or what the substance is here. What am I missing? Put another way. What does anyone on HN actually uniquely know about this situation. Could someone help simplify this?
automaton 14y ago
I'd like to see someone like John Ivy (or someone from hardware and iOS) move over to Samsung or Google. There is so much potential in Android and it has some great hardware too.
patfla 14y ago
Is this an instance of Think Different?
seannui 14y ago
Well, if he truly wants to emulate Jobs he needs to have his wilderness years outside of Apple's bosom. As the prophecy has foretold he'll return in 11 years to retake his spot as rightful CEO.

470 points by FredericJ 14y ago

Another upside: iOS and OS X are now both run by the same person. Hopefully this means that when there is convergence/overlap between the two platforms, it will be done more thoughtfully, rather than taking something from one and awkwardly bolting it onto the other one a la Launchpad.

Toddward 14y ago

John Browett is leaving too - that didn't last long.

w1ntermute 14y ago

Looks like he got shitcanned for the Maps fiasco.

mpweiher 14y ago
Sounds more like the outcome of a long and bloody power struggle to me, though the maps fiasco may have helped decide the outcome.
Gring 14y ago
The problem with maps is the back-end data, which he was't responsible for, as far as I know.

yzap 14y ago

Sacked for Apple Maps?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

FredericJ 14y ago

Can't wait to read this thread on Quora. http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/Why-is-Scott-Forstall-leaving-Apple http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/Why-is-Scott-Forstall-leavi...

FredericJ 14y ago
Already a few interesting answers
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
gergles 14y ago
I'd love to read it too. Unfortunately, I can't: """ Sign in to read this page. You may only read Quora content while logged in. Sign In with Facebook I Already Have a Quora Account Why do I need to join to read this? Quora is a knowledge-sharing community that depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. """ I'm going to put out a request to 'stop linking to Quora', because we readily decry this shit when expertsexchange does it, but when a Valley Darling does it, it's OK? (Interestingly, they're A/Bing 'forced' login - when I loaded the page again in an incognito window, a "Cancel" option suddenly appeared.) (Edit: the cancel option is worthless, every answer is unreadable and covered with: """ Join Quora for free to read this answer. Connect to Facebook Connect to Twitter Connecting helps us surface content that is relevant to you. We'll never post without your permission. I don't have a Facebook or Twitter account. )"""

msbarnett 14y ago

Ive heading up "Human Interface" now. Say goodbye to the Rich Corinthian Leather on every third App.

rolando 14y ago
hallelujah!
gsibble 14y ago
Corinth if famous for its leather! /Archer

arrrg 14y ago

Jony Ive is now responsible for HI guidelines across the company? That could turn out great or horrible. (I'm not sure whether obviously great hardware designers can also be great UI designers.) I'm optimistic for now. Hopefully that means bye bye overt skeumorphism. (I do think Apple's UIs have in the past always been above average, sometimes excellent. Their fashion choices, however, have at times been horrible. It would be great if Apple could change the second, not necessarily the first part.)

pooriaazimi 14y ago
The man's got taste. That's good enough for me. Though I fear that it probably is "bye bye overt skeumorphism", but what if the new ideology is "hello excessive minimalism/removing every last pro feature left"? Let's hope not. I don't use iCal or Address Book much, so I don't hate that stupid skeumorphism like the rest of the world (I like it though when it's used sparingly and isn't just keep getting in your way)...
- glhaynes 14y ago
  Though I fear that it's "bye bye overt skeumorphism" for sure, but maybe it's "hello excessive minimalism/removing every last feature"? Let's hope not. Well said. Ive's aesthetic has certainly worked for the hardware line. Even if for nothing else than just the novelty of seeing what they'll put out, I'm delighted to see him take over all HI.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  The man's got taste. That was true of Jobs as well... but holy crap, have you seen his yacht? Unfortunately, good aesthetic judgement in one area doesn't always carry over into other areas, even those that seem closely related. Human-machine interfaces have a functional aspect that can't be handled by dashing off yet another homage to Dieter Rams. Ive hasn't yet shown competence in this aspect of design.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    > That was true of Jobs as well... but holy crap, have you seen his yacht? On the other hand, have you seen the designs the approved for the future HQ?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

feverishaaron 14y ago

Interesting that Jony will be overseeing UI. I expect a more minimalistic polish to upcoming interfaces. In other words, this is the beginning of the end for the skeuomorphism trend at Apple.

bengl3rt 14y ago
Yes, it's widely known that Ive was one of the most strongly opposed to skeuomorphism whereas Forstall was one of its biggest proponents within the company.
mikesun 14y ago
happy for this move. i was actually starting to envy microsoft's metro design aesthetic and loathe the changes that came in every new os x release.
jitl 14y ago
I'm very excited about this. I left the Apple ecosystem over thier poorly-designed skeuomorphic interfaces (iCal and Address Book in Lion being very frustrating). I love the hardware, though, and I'm excited for a return to UX on par with that hardware.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
pooriaazimi 14y ago
No. It's not UI, it's HI (Human Interface) now! It's best we all get used to it. It'll be repeated again and again from now on :) Edit: This is what I mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interface > Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for _Human Interface_ in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings. It's still a non-word, but will be an (oft-used) word soon enough (like that damn skeumorphism thing).
- defap 14y ago
  Apple has used the term HI for a long, long time.

emehrkay 14y ago

Wasnt he supposed to be the next Steve Jobs? He was noticeably missing from the last event. It was strange that they didnt have ios updates to talk about (that is when he gets on stage).

sjwright 14y ago
My observation was that Scott wanted to be the next Steve, with his autoskeuomorphic behavior. That he spent the last 15 years working for Steve is probably also a factor here. I think some people assume he was being groomed for that position, but I never sensed that.

kristopher 14y ago

While mere speculation, I do not think he is leaving over Maps directly. I personally think there was internal tension over making sir Jony head of leadership and direction for Human Interface and he quit over that -- also there is the possibility that he was perhaps looking to run Apple as CEO at some point but that does not seem to be in the cards.

rbn 14y ago

I'm expecting a move away from Skeuomorphism towards minimalism now that Jony Ive is the head of "Human Interface"

jakespencer 14y ago

Wow, this is great news all around. Jony Ive can only improve the Human Interfaces we've seen, and although he was obviously good at a lot of things, Forstall did tend to over-promise and under-deliver (Siri, Maps). This makes me feel great about Cook as CEO.

jakespencer 14y ago
And good riddance to Browett.

apike 14y ago

> Scott Forstall will be leaving Apple next year > Jony Ive will provide leadership and direction for Human Interface (HI) across the company And thus ended the reign of skeuomorphism at Apple. Or, at least, the reign of hyper-realism and hyper-whimsy in UI design. Jobs or Forstall always seemed to favour it, but could you imagine Jony Ive signing off on a Podcasts app where half the screen is a reel-to-reel tape that bounces when you pause?

zach 14y ago
That's what's so weird, though — that particular reel-to-reel design actually seems like a deliberate combination of both influences. The skeuomorphic look of Podcasts was based on a physical product design by Ive's legendary design influence, Dieter Rams: http://www.cultofmac.com/176008/heres-the-braun-tape-recorder-that-inspired-apples-podcasts-app-gallery/ http://www.cultofmac.com/176008/heres-the-braun-tape-recorde... In retrospect, the tension inherent in this odd compromise seems palpable. It's like listening to the last album a band releases before they break up.
- jarek 14y ago
  Skeuomorphing physical objects designed by Rams is still skeuomorphing.
  - fleitz 14y ago
    Skeuomorphic design is rarely as little design as possible which is what makes the podcast design so iconic... er.. ironic.
    - 89a 14y ago
      Same goes for this stupid piece of shit http://www.wthr.co http://www.wthr.co
      - jarek 14y ago
        I was so confused when I saw that app a couple of months back. Why spend so much effort creating an admittedly aesthetically pleasing design, name check Rams and his principles, and so completely miss the point of "as little design as possible" and have a non-functional spinner display for the current conditions? And having such a prominent °F/°C switch is just baffling. This is not a function used regularly by the vast majority of users.

pycassa 14y ago

man behind skeuomorphism in apple's ios? I remember watching him in a keynote showing the piano app on iphone when they announced appstore/iphone. I was blown away by that demo.. those were the days maan..

mwc 14y ago

Interesting to see confirmation of Bob Mansfield's continued role in the company. He'll lead a new group, "Technologies", responsible for wireless and semis.

apike 14y ago
It's unusual for Apple to hype something like this, but in that note they mention Mansfield's semiconductor team "have ambitious plans for the future". I doubt that simply refers to making the A7 faster and more power-efficient.
- djcapelis 14y ago
  Apple's semiconductor plans have always been something that's been interesting to watch develop over the last few years. I was wondering what they were going to throw Mansfield on ever since they appointed his replacement and just designated him as basically someone who was going to work on a special project. Sounds like a thrust towards driving Apple deeper into the bottom of the hardware stack to me. Apple currently is very good at setting up good solid deep relationships with hardware suppliers and designing lots of stuff to make things work together. But they've been pushing further and further down the stack ever since the PASemi acquisition. I wonder when they're going to start building fabs. It seems like if you've got >$30B sitting around, devoting a VP to making a new team and are worried about your competitors controlling your supply chains for memories and other core technologies... I guess we're going to find out. If I'm right, the earliest indicators will probably be hiring the types of people you'd need to spin up serious fabs.
- Geee 14y ago
  ARM on desktop, perhaps? No one has ever designed a desktop-class chip with ARM architecture, so that's one 'ambitious' direction one could take.
  - watmough 14y ago
    Hahahaha. So you've never heard about what the ARM was originally designed for? http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Computers/A500.html http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/Computers/A500.html I guess that was a while ago! And it certainly was desktop-class. It beat the pants off a 12 MHz 286.

mratzloff 14y ago

He oversaw Siri and Maps, two products which over-promised and under-delivered, and six months ago he cashed out 95% of his Apple stock. I think it was evident he lost the power struggle and it killed his enthusiasm. His heart just wasn't in it anymore.

ricardobeat 14y ago
That's interesting, do you have a source for the stock cash-out?
- mratzloff 14y ago
  Sure. Here you go: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57425920-37/apple-exec-scott-forstall-sells-off-95-percent-of-his-shares/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57425920-37/apple-exec-sco...
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    Thanks! Interesting quote: Although a major sell-off can sometimes mean an executive is leaving a company, that might not be the case with Forstall. I wonder why this didn't generate any rumours of his departure at the time?
    - jason_slack 14y ago
      I think this is more interesting: "Forstall has made it abundantly clear inside Cupertino that he would like to eventually be Apple's chief executive, adding that "he wears his ambition in plainer view than the typical Apple executive.""
      - fudged71 14y ago
        Power struggle. It'll be interesting to see where he goes next.
- bonzoesc 14y ago

aaronbrethorst 14y ago

Interesting timing on the announcement, given that the stock market is closed today and likely tomorrow too. As both a fan and shareholder of Apple, I'm very pleased to hear Browett is out. The stories that came out a couple months ago about the changes in Apple Retail did fill me with admiration for his management style. Also, given how Forstall is described in a Business Week profile[1], and that Bob Mansfield is not only sticking around, but heading up a new team, I wonder if Mansfield laid out an ultimatum to Tim Cook about 'him or me'. [1] http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorc...

dave1619 14y ago
Regarding Mansfield, it's interesting that Apple announced his retirement a few months ago: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/06/28Bob-Mansfield-Apples-Senior-Vice-President-of-Hardware-Engineering-to-Retire.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/06/28Bob-Mansfield-Appl... Then Cook convinced Mansfield to "unretire" and become an advisor: http://gigaom.com/apple/shedding-light-on-apple-exec-drama-why-svp-bob-mansfield-unretired/ http://gigaom.com/apple/shedding-light-on-apple-exec-drama-w... And now, Mansfield heads up a huge new group called Technologies (wireless, semiconductor, etc). What a roller coaster for Mansfield... but not just him, the entire management team because they're all working together and dependent on each other.
- nirvana 14y ago
  I think retaining key talent is one of Tim Cooks' most important jobs... and this shows pretty clearly that Mansfield was tired of his previous job, wanted to retire, and Tim found a way to create a position that interested him, or at least, would keep him around for a couple more years. And this new section, I think, could be really important. Apple has been really innovating in silicon and wireless technologies, and they're at a point where this will increasingly be the source of key competitive advantages. I suspect Mansfield's job is to integrate this division, get it whipped into shape and then recruit a replacement to lead it.
wilfra 14y ago

aganek 14y ago

Bold action often results in great things. Apple has always strived to couple great hardware design with great software. Excited to see them bring the two departments closer again.

k-mcgrady 14y ago

John Browett didn't last long. Jony Ive overseeing UI should be interesting and might bring an end to the skeuomorphism bug at Apple. I wonder how this will affect iOS. Forstall has been in charge from the beginning (afaik) so we might see some big changes and even better integration with OS X now that Craig Federighi is in charge of both teams. Edit: I wonder if Forstall's departure has anything to do with Mansfield staying on?

mukaiji 14y ago

So... can we now all agree that Tim Cook is a good CEO?

glhaynes 14y ago
Jury's still out at this point[1], but this certainly makes me optimistic. Or, at the very least, intensely interested in what this new arrangement will yield. [1] He seems to certainly not be a bad CEO if we're talking about the set {All CEOs}. But you'd have to be really really good to not look awful if you're following Jobs.
pdenya 14y ago
I don't know if anyone ever doubted Tim Cook as a good/credible CEO. The only issue is whether or not he can be jobs-level which is unlikely but remains to be seen.
- sigzero 14y ago
  I think jobs-level is unattainable really. I am just hoping Cook is a consistently great CEO.
adamneilson 14y ago
To take the scalpe of the "mini-Steve" AKA "CEO in waiting" shows an adeptness at self-preservation if nothing else. (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorc...)
chj 14y ago
Yes, as long as he's not giving presentation.

nachteilig 14y ago

I'm actually surprised that they allowed John Browett to receive his first batch of grants before they showed him the door. Didn't seem like he had long after some of his recent communication problems.

r00fus 14y ago
I'm not - it's part of the requirement to provide some renumeration (esp. in stock) for departing executives regardless of tenure as their inside knowledge is very dangerous in the wrong hands. It's also a lesson to the hiring team: you know you'll be paying some decent compensation regardless of who you hire or for how long, so learn to do your job well and hire the right person. Ounce of prevention and all that.

mukaiji 14y ago

Just to be clear, he's not "leaving." He got fired. He got fired because after the map fiasco became apparent, he refused to send out an apology or sign his name to the one Tim Cook sent. (internal knowledge)

jusben1369 14y ago
Not sure if that's true or not but there's probably more to it than just that correct?
- mukaiji 14y ago
  Well he wasn't very liked either.
  - pooriaazimi 14y ago
    By whom? The (upper) management, or his team?
    - mukaiji 14y ago
      Both.
gsibble 14y ago
Apple Security is probably outside your house as I write this.
wisty 14y ago
(No internal knowledge) I'm surprised he got fired over maps. Mapping is hard - comparable to writing a search engine. Apple did as well as can be expected for a first attempt. They had some kind of problem with Google Maps, and wanted to build their own capability, which was never going to be easy. He might have been fired if he cheated, by creating a well curated Valley dataset to prove to the other execs what a great job he'd done. That would annoy people. I've heard rumors that he was seen as "better managing up than down" (impressing his boss, at the expense of results), and that doesn't strike me as something Tim Cook would like very much (both from his reported management style, and the number of stock options he has). I can see that being a last straw from Tim - "You screwed up, now own up to it. Or else."

jordhy 14y ago

I feel very sorry for Apple. Scott was a major catalyst that made things happen at the company.

Uhhrrr 14y ago
His functions are being taken over by people who make good things happen at the company.
objclxt 14y ago
...but on the other hand, there's been speculation for years that his management style was very bad, and the source of frustration in the engineering teams, as well as his friction with the industrial design team.
- jarek 14y ago
  So he was just like Steve then?

martin_bech 14y ago

At first I was shocked by the headline, but after reading the story, I actually think, this could be amazing. Getting Jony Ive to oversee both industrial and software design, could lead to something very exciting, that provides the innovation, the software, has been lacking. I have full confidence, in Eddy Cue, Craig, and Bob their new roles, and hope this means Bob will stay on longer. As per the direct no apology firing of Browett.. Sweet! I was actually hoping for that. I was insane to gamble with the Apple stores reputation and service for a litle more margin. Having now seen a Dixons, I have no idea, why he was hired

lanna 14y ago

Hooray!

benguild 14y ago

I'm relieved about this. Pretty much all of the missteps at Apple that I've cared about were related to this guy. I'm confident that Ive will clear things up soon.

dm8 14y ago

Looks like Maps fiasco was too much to handle. Didn't they ask their SVP of hardware to leave when they had antennagate?

ricardobeat 14y ago

Most interesting part: John Browett is leaving Apple So his views on retail really did not fit Apple after all.

89a 14y ago
Not that interesting, anyone familiar with his work could tell you he's a bad fit

archgrove 14y ago

Anyone who A) likes Apple and B) has ever been in a Dixons store in the UK will be overjoyed with the other departure, Browett (head of retail and previous Dixons CEO) who is leaving immediately (compared to Forstall's year long "transition" departure). Dixons is everything that Apple should never be; terrible customer service, clueless minimum wage staff, horrible retail experience, and generally used only by people who desperately need something immediately or are too naive to find another store. Recent news out of Apple regarding "cutbacks" at retail suggested he was nudging them in the same direction. Given that he got his first stock disbursement last week and was due $58 million over the next few years if he hung around, I'm guessing he was pushed. Great decision from Cook if that was the case.

nagrom 14y ago
It's worth noting that Dixon's eventually scaled back its high-street presence completely and is now found only in airports. If his role at Dixon's was what got him a job at Apple, I'd be really surprised!
- bruceboughton 14y ago
  Not exactly. Dixons branches were re-branded as Currys.digital and there are plenty of those.
- aes256 14y ago
  Dixons is just one brand of Dixons Retail (formerly DSG International) which also owns Currys, PC World, etc. They rebranded all their high street stores to Currys.digital, and although store numbers have been declining, they are still a regular fixture on high streets.
  - mibbitier 14y ago
    That would explain why Currys and PC World are also ridiculously awful. Every time I go into one of those shops, it's because I need something immediately, to take away. They never have it in stock, and ask if I'd like to order it. If I wanted to order it, I'd do it myself, online.

enraged_camel 14y ago

I wonder what this means for the possibility of future Apple devices having haptic touchscreens. edit: What was the downvote for?!

matheusalmeida 14y ago

Given that 50% of the posts talk about skeuomorphism and honestly I didn't know what it was, here's the definition from Wikipedia: "A skeuomorph, or skeuomorphism is when a product imitates design elements functionally necessary in the original product design, but that becomes ornamental in the new product design".

snowwrestler 14y ago
It's a new word for an old concept: a decorative anachronism. Obvious examples from outside the world of computing include stone pillars in front of important buildings, and rivets on jeans. It's abused here on HN as short-hand for app decorations that people don't like, like the infamous leather treatment on the calendar. But there are plenty of "skeuomorphic" aspects to iOS that I never see anyone complain about (and sometimes compliment), like inertial scrolling or sliding on/off switches.
- sigzero 14y ago
  I don't think it will all go. I think the stuff like faux leather interfaces will though.
- Gravityloss 14y ago
  Inertial scrolling is tremendously useful, you can scroll more with fewer swipes.

mlchild 14y ago

People's reactions to this announcement are overly focused on Forstall's assumed support for heavy skeumorphism (and their excitement at his departure as lead proponent). I think his record as head of iOS since its inception is a much more salient issue. Forstall led development of the fastest-growing, most popular computing platform of the past decade or so with, to be sure, a few notable screw-ups, but mostly incredible innovation and efficiency. While his departure does sound like the result of a power struggle that needed to be resolved, I really believe we're shortchanging his incredible achievements. Forstall's departure is not unequivocally or even clearly a victory for those who are firm believers in iOS and its ecosystem going forward. The only reasonable reaction is that we'll have to wait and see.

sounds 14y ago
The thing about Forstall's achievements is he did them all under the shadow of Steve Jobs. Is it that he had to take a more active role now, and not just be a Jobs man? Is it that Jobs could bring talented people together and keep them there and Tim Cook is failing to do that? I'm almost certain it's neither of those, but they serve to illustrate the point: when people think of iOS, Scott Forstall is not even close to the first person they think of giving credit to.
- mlchild 14y ago
  I agree that probably neither or those explanations is fully true, but I do believe that Jobs had the ability to harness conflicting personalities towards greater goals. I do disagree with your last point, though —— I've watched every keynote for the past 6-7 years and Forstall has rocked the iOS presentations. Perhaps I'm biased, but I very deeply associate him with the greatness of iOS, particularly Apple's ability to steadily pick off the "low-hanging fruit" features (e.g. 3rd party apps in 2.0, copy-and-paste, PC-free) with regularity and elegance.
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snowwrestler 14y ago
Excellent perspective. Apple is not going to succeed or fail based on skeuomorphism. The iPhone and iPad have reached their success in large part because of the tremendous capability and growth of iOS, and Scott Forstall led those efforts. Yes a power struggle seems to be resolved, but Forstall's departure could turn out to be a big loss for Apple.

danilocampos 14y ago

Interesting that Eddie Cue remains the company fixer, taking on the quirky Siri and the flakey Maps app just as he was once given a completely fucked up MobileMe. This is good news. Even better news is Browett's ouster. The business with his cutting operational corners in retail was a very, very bad omen. If they'd left him in, he might have poisoned a very important well for the company. Hopefully his replacement is closer to Ron Johnson's set of retail and service values. N'bad, Tim.

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- jcoder 14y ago
  That's what he said.
- pledge 14y ago
  That's what your parent said.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
dave1619 14y ago
Eddy Cue is also the one responsible for getting Apple to make a 7"-8" tablet: http://allthingsd.com/20120803/apples-eddy-cue-saw-market-for-7-inch-tablet-in-2011-said-should-do-one/ http://allthingsd.com/20120803/apples-eddy-cue-saw-market-fo...
Steko 14y ago
As much as Apple's software and hardware are talked about, Eddie Cue is also the guy largely responsible for negotiating Apple's superior media offerings which is arguably Apple's biggest lead on their competitors internationally.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  No kidding! Anywhere you can recommend I read more about this?

kmfrk 14y ago

This makes me incredibly excited for Apple. I would rather that Siri and Maps hadn't belly-flopped the way they did, but iOS is getting really long in the tooth, and Apple have made some seriously weird design decisions with the platform.

ececconi 14y ago

Everybody here talks about Ive being opposed to skeuomorphism , does anybody have any examples of what the UI would look like under the leadership of his design principles? I can't even imagine it.

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rahoulb 14y ago
Like this? http://wthr.co/ http://wthr.co/ (although I have to say, it looks beautiful but is an awful app)
- jarek 14y ago
  God save the design world if an app with a spinner display for non-linear, non-rotational, non-user-controlled data and a prominent switch that maybe 5% of the users will use more than once is the future of Apple's UI.

panacea 14y ago

Everyone's mentioning Maps/Siri, but my most recent disappointment with an Apple product is the UI, performance and structure of Game Center for iOS. I've never been inclined to use it before the recent release of Letterpress which necessitates its use and it a steaming pile of you-know-what. It's so jarring going from the lovely minimalism of the Letterpress game into parts of Game Center to manage match/friend requests. It's the sort of experience that's had me worried about Apple, and this is (tentatively) good news, as I gather he was heading up the part of Apple responsible for such products.

jonknee 14y ago

Scott Forstall is already rich thanks to Apple, but he lost a lot of money by being fired. 75,000 RSUs vesting in 2013, 100,000 RSUs to vest in 2014, and 75,000 in 2016. That's a lot of dough ($151M at today's share price).

dave1619 14y ago

Here are the major changes announced: 1. Jony Ive's role is expanded from Industrial Design to Industrial Design AND Human Interface. In other words, Ive is the new Design chief for hardware and software. This is huge. 2. Scott Forstall is out (after an interim advising role to Tim Cook). iOS goes to Craig Federighi who already oversees Mac OS. So, now iOS and Mac OS are overseen by the same person. 3. Eddy Cue's role is expanded (he previously was in charge of iTunes, App Store, iBookStore, iCloud). He now also oversees Siri and Maps. 4. Bob Mansfield will lead a new group called Technologies (wireless and semiconductor). 5. John Browett of retail is out. Overall, I view this move as extremely positive. Tim Cook just elevated his most reliable and capable SVPs to assume more leadership role. John Ive, Eddy Cue, Mansfield and Federighi have all proven to be pretty spectacular. Ive with industrial design, Cue with iTunes/AppStore/iCloud, Mansfield with hardware and Federighi with Mac OS. Further, Tim Cook gets rid of his problem SVPs - namely Browett who didn't match the culture of Apple... and Scott Forstall (who advanced iOS in huge ways) but reportedly had problems with getting along with other SVPs and also who disappointed users with iOS6/Maps (and also in my opinion poorly designed and implemented Apple apps... appstore reviews for Apple apps have gone significantly down the last year or two). Cook will probably give Forstall a good severance package with an agreement that Forstall doesn't go to a mobile OS competitor. I'm actually more optimistic on Apple with this bold management shakeup. Tim Cook is showing the moves of a bold leader... and it's exactly what Apple needs.

sigzero 14y ago
I agree! I only see good in these moves.
guiambros 14y ago
Great summary, thanks. Important to mention (you did already, but just to emphasize) that Scott Forstall will be "advisor to CEO Tim Cook in the interim". Interim meaning more specifically 6 months, till April 2013. This should allow him to cash in some thousands of stock options, which will serve as a natural non-competitive package. Which would be very fair, given his role in re-shaping Apple over all these years.

ececconi 14y ago

I think one of the worst examples of UI design by Apple is the iCloud website. It's just so slow and clunky. I can't believe more people aren't complaining about it.

chj 14y ago
Yes, it is slow and clunky, but better alternatives are next door. So why complain?
- ececconi 14y ago
  I actually like to use it for the calendar and the notes.
flxmglrb 14y ago
No one uses it, that's why. Meanwhile, I saw a Microsoft Surface demo at the mall yesterday and their approach to photo sharing via "SkyDrive" is FAR simpler and easier to use than Apple's. You know you're in trouble when MS has better usability than you. Not a good sign.

nostromo 14y ago

Does anyone but me here listen incessantly to podcasts? The latest Podcasts App from iTunes is a skeuomorphic mess. It has a superfluous animation of a reel-to-reel player of course. But it utterly fails at its most basic task: playing a goddamn podcast. But don't take my word for it, it has a 1.5 star rating on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/podcasts/id525463029 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/podcasts/id525463029 Not to mention crashes... Apple used to make jokes about the Windows blue screen of death. Well, that's my new day-to-day experience with iOS apps. I'm constantly restarting crashed apps over and over. Honestly, this is good news if Forstall really is the driving force behind the deteriorating user experience of many apps.

ciniglio 14y ago
You likely know this already, but Downcast is an awesome podcast app, it has location based downloading as well, which is great if you're a commuter. (I also listen to a lot of podcasts and have been disappointed by the Apple Podcast app).
whatusername 14y ago
On a suggestion from my father - I downloaded the 'downcast" app. $2 well spent in my opinion.
- da_n 14y ago
  I have tried almost all the podcast apps at this stage (sinking about $15-20) and although Downcasts is great (my number 2 choice) I recently found myself prefering the lesser known Pocket Casts. The best feature by far is they poll the feeds on their own servers and push notifications to you (I know Instacast is supposed to do this but I didn't find it very reliable and Instacast had many other problems for me). Pocket Casts very rarely crashes (with over 60 podcasts subscribed), resumes/pauses system-wide reliably and instantly, has a nice responsive UI (even on my iPhone 4) and has full import/export OPML so you aren't stuck with them. No affiliation.
mukaiji 14y ago
Can't up vote this comment either. Just the reel to reel player is a joke.

uladzislau 14y ago

The writing was on the wall: Does Apple have a Scott Forstall problem? http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/09/29/does-apple-have-a-scott-forstall-problem/ http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/09/29/does-apple-have-a-sco... Apple Retail Leadership Tells Stores It 'Messed Up' Employee Working Hours, Refutes Layoffs http://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-retail-leadership-tells-stores-it-messed-up-employee-working-hours-refutes-layoffs-20120816-00774 http://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-retail-leadership-tells-...

Tycho 14y ago

Shame. He had great stage presence at the Apple shows.

revelation 14y ago

I'm not an Apple insider. Pushing Google Maps away seems to me like a political decision reserved for someone like Cook, not Forstall. If Cook shoved Google out and tasked Forstall with the impossible task of developing a better maps offering in what amounts to a year, this would be a sign that upper management jumped the shark, not Forstall himself.

twoodfin 14y ago
The mapping project is much older than a year. Apple bought Placebase in July, 2009.
bronxbomber92 14y ago
Maps was started while Jobs was around, so at the very least you can't accuse Cook of that.
89a 14y ago
More like 3 years but still impossible

sk2code 14y ago

I guess this is the serious blow to Apple. Many people across the board will reconsider their position with the shares of APPL. Time to take the profit.

smegel 14y ago

Can everyone saying "it's unfair to dump him due to Maps, because mapping is hard" realize it has nothing to do with the quality of the application, but the quality (or lack thereof) of the PR and management of customer expectations. If Apple had come out 3 months before iPhone5 and said "Look, we really need to divorce ourselves from Google Maps as we can't be relying on an arch-competitor for such an important service, but please be aware that our new Maps app will have issues for several months as we work out the kinks based on customer feedback", and reinforced that message several times, the issue would have been close to a non-issue - and I think most people would have understood. Instead they came out and said "new Maps is the greatest thing since sliced bread!" (paraphrasing) which was downright wrong and people rightly felt let down.

bennyg 14y ago
I don't know about that PR move you suggested. It's not very becoming of the market leader to publicly express that their own product that hasn't launched yet, and won't for 3 months, is buggy and incomplete - and to be patient with them while it gets fixed. I don't agree that calling it the best ever was such a great move, but that's what Apple does. In a couple years, it won't matter what happened with the Maps launch. It'll be great by then. And nobody will be talking about it - just like 0 "average consumers" talk about antennagate.
- smegel 14y ago
  It's not very becoming either that the CEO of such an image concious company has to make a such grovelling apology for such an embarrassing failure... I agree that in the long term Maps will be great and people will have forgotten the ill-planned launch - except perhaps Scott Forstall.
  - bennyg 14y ago
    You're right too, but that's a better move than a preemptive apology. They have the "report a problem" feature in the Maps app too, so it should help organically grow. I do miss Scott Forstall on stage, he was a good presenter.

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stevewillows 14y ago

Is there a chance that the move away from skeuomorphism and putting OSX and IOS under one umbrella is a response to the direction Microsoft is taking with Windows 8?

pdknsk 14y ago

Who wants to bet that Marissa called him already? Seems like the perfect fit for the new Yahoo mobile oriented strategy, does it not? I have no clue to be honest.

e1ven 14y ago
Keep in mind he has a year transition period at Apple. After that, Apple likely gave him a list of verboten companies as part of the severance. Google is certainly on that list. Yahoo may or may not.

camus 14y ago

I cant wait to hear reactions from the fanboys when Cook is out : "Oh yeah , best opportunity ever for Apple...", Whatever Apple does is ,strangely ,always a good decision from its followers perspective...

nirvana 14y ago

It wasn't always obvious that Cook would be the CEO of Apple after Jobs left. This is the job Forstall wanted, but that Apple didn't want him for. The job went to Cook, and so Forstall was either going to have to find a place to be happy in Apple or he'd be on his way out. This gives a smooth transition to the large teams under him over the next year or so, in exchange for more vesting of his shares. People saying this is about Maps or Siri or Skoumorphism are focusing on relatively petty issues. This is about how is going to be the leader of Apple. Tim Cook turned out to not just be the interim CEO, and waiting a year for the transition is respectful all around-- and is enough time for everyone to know what the right direction for their lives is. Forstall may want to do a startup-- where he'd certainly be a CEO.

Bud 14y ago

Nobody's posted this yet, so I'll give it a try. Dear Scott, Could you please start up NeXT again? That would really rock. Thanks, Bud

wilfra 14y ago
Forstall was the executive most like Steve Jobs within the company, so it will be interesting to see what he does next. He got forced out, just like Steve did. Now will he start a new company and get acquired and become the CEO down the road?

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wisty 14y ago

I think there's a few layers to this: 1) Forstall apparently wants to be CEO, and run the company. That puts him at odds with Cook (the CEO), and Ive (who wants to drive Apple's design decisions). 2) He's divisive. There's claims that neither Jonny Ive nor Bob Mansfield would talk to him without Tim Cook mediating. There's also claims that he "managed up" (showed off to the boss) better than he "managed down", and stole credit while deflecting critisism. 3) He was the guy in charge of Siri and Maps. 4) He was probably the one driving the post-Jobs war with Google. Siri and Maps are Apple's way of fighting Google. Siri competes with Google Search, and Maps competes with Google Maps. There are reasons why Apple wants to spite Google, but the whole strategy could also be Scot Forstall's way of creating his own empire in Apple. Going head to head with Google requires lots of resources, which would all be under Forstall's command. I don't think it's a good gamble for Apple. Google doesn't really hate Apple. I bet they'll port everything they can to iOS, as long as they can keep pushing their ads. Nexus might see Apple as a competitor, but Nexus isn't worth as much as adwords. As Eric Schmidt said in an interview - "It's their call". If Apple goes down the path Forstall wants, they'll be going head to head with Google in the things Google is best at. If they stop trying to turn into a data / AI company, they can focus on what they do best - making easy to use devices which sell like hotcakes, and command a fat profit margin. Android will hurt them, but as long as they focus on their core strengths (hardware, marketing, industrial design, interface design, and integration) they'll continue to do pretty well. They milked the iPod for a decade, despite there being plenty of better value competitors. They can do the same with the iPhone. They can do the same with whatever the next big thing is. I'd say going to war with Google will be at best a waste of time, and most likely a string of humiliating losses.

seldo 14y ago
I regret that I have but one vote to give this analysis. Spot on.
niels_olson 14y ago
Spot on. I can't help but add that on the day Apple is getting a lot unwanted press, the company you paint as Forstall's rival, Google, is also on HN front page with a remarkably quiet announcement of a $399 10" 300 dpi tablet. I hope this marks a low for Apple. All things considered, they could do a lot worse. Hopefully they will only keep improving.

18pfsmt 14y ago

Lots of supposition and subjectivity. I'm pretty much clueless on this topic, but from a quick scan this seems like pure gossip. I've learned nothing at all except for various HN opinions, and I have trouble understanding if and/or what the substance is here. What am I missing? Put another way. What does anyone on HN actually uniquely know about this situation. Could someone help simplify this?

automaton 14y ago

I'd like to see someone like John Ivy (or someone from hardware and iOS) move over to Samsung or Google. There is so much potential in Android and it has some great hardware too.

patfla 14y ago

Is this an instance of Think Different?

seannui 14y ago

Well, if he truly wants to emulate Jobs he needs to have his wilderness years outside of Apple's bosom. As the prophecy has foretold he'll return in 11 years to retake his spot as rightful CEO.