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I don’t think we can truly compare the missile attacks of Hamas vs the bombing campaigns of Israel Look at any photo of any neighborhood in Israel, is there an

I don’t think we can truly compare the missile attacks of Hamas vs the bombing campaigns of Israel Look at any photo of any neighborhood in Israel, is there anywhere that remotely looks similar to the pile of rocks that Gaza looks like now? Universities, hospitals, so much infrastructure, all gone. So much of Gaza is now people living in tents. Israel destroyed so much civilian infrastructure that existed. How’s that similar to you?

ceejayoz 8mo ago
Look, I don't disagree, but American cities looked pretty fine after WWII, and Germany was rubble. Which side gets pounded more doesn't inherently prove which side was right. (In this case, I'm of the opinion that both sides committed clear, deliberate war crimes.)
- DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
  Germany invaded most of Europe and left much of it in rubble. You're picking a very weird, specific comparison (German vs. US cities) and leaving out the obvious comparison (German vs. Soviet or Polish cities). Also, comparing Nazi Germany, a massively powerful industrial state, with a tiny, poor territory under foreign occupation by a vastly superior power is insane.
  - richardfeynman 8mo ago
    Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries: more soldiers, more rockets, more war-fighting infrastructure. Gaza wasn't a particularly poor place before the war, certainly not by the standards of the middle east. It had mansions and average salaries that, for some professions, were higher than average salaries in Israel. It was a net food exporter.
    - xg15 8mo ago
      It was also fully blockaded by Israeli (and Egyptian) forces on all sides? Israel was in full control of what was going in an out of it.
      - richardfeynman 8mo ago
        I don't see how that's relevant to the earlier claim, but even this claim of yours is a gross overstatement. There was a partial blockade, not a full blockade, and this partial blockade came after Palestinians launched the second intifada. Prior to the october 7 massacre, perpetrated by Hamas and gazan civilians, tens of thousands of gazans were able to travel out of gaza through egypt and israel, where many of them worked. nearly 75,000 truckloads of food and cargo went into gaza from israel in 2022. Gaza exported lots too.
        xg15 8mo ago
        My point is that Israel had full control about exactly what Gaza was allowed to import and export (and frequently used those controls for collective punishment as well) I don't quite see how under those circumstances, they were able to build "a more powerful army than many European countries", unless you talk about Luxembourg or the Vatican. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
        youarentrightjr 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        richardfeynman 8mo ago
        Yes, Israel and Egypt together controlled what Gaza was allowed to import and export - not as a form of collective punishment, but to ensure its own security. There's a huge difference between that and a "full blockade" (which is what Russia did to Mariupol early in the war), so precision matters. In terms of Hamas's army being more powerful than that of many European countries, I'll respond to that below. And the Wikipedia article you cite has been manipulated by a band of ideological editors and is not reliable, and has no value (inverse value?) as a citation.
    - youarentrightjr 8mo ago
      > Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries What? You mean countries like Monaco and Liechtenstein? > more soldiers, more rockets Simply counting the # of soldiers or rockets is disingenuous when this is obviously an asymmetric war. It's clear that the method of combatant recognition employed by the IDF is flawed, given they're killing aid workers and people from the UN. Eg, here is Hamas' bread and butter rocket: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket There is more technology in a modern rifle round than in those rockets + launch systems (if you even dare call them that). > more war-fighting infrastructure Please explain what you mean by "war-fighting infrastructure ". > Gaza wasn't a particularly poor place before the war, certainly not by the standards of the middle east Depends on what you mean by "standards of the Middle East", but just compare Israel($52k) and Gaza ($3455) for 2023: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=IL&start=2022 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=PS&start=2022 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... > It had mansions and average salaries that, for some professions, were higher than average salaries in Israel. "The wealthiest in a poor country have more money than the average in a developed country", means what exactly? How did you develop your understanding of this situation? And what are you trying to communicate here?
      - richardfeynman 8mo ago
        I claimed Hamas had a larger and more powerful military than many European countries. This is a fact. > What? You mean countries like Monaco and Liechtenstein? No, my claim is much stronger. I mean Hamas's army was comparable to countries like Denmark (20k active soldiers), Finland, the Czech republic (27k active) and maybe even the Netherlands (40k active). Estimates of the size of Hamas's army pre October 7 range from 20k to 40k active combatants, with US intelligence estimates converging on 30k. This is looking just at fighters and excludes Hamas's political wing. > Simply counting the # of soldiers or rockets is disingenuous when this is obviously an asymmetric war. Counting things like soldiers and military arsenals is the standard way to evaluate military strength. And of course there is a force asymmetry, Israel is a global power and its air force is probably the second most effective in the world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't evaluate Gaza's military the way we would any other. > Please explain what you mean by "war-fighting infrastructure ". Well, for example, Hamas built the largest underground military tunnel system in the known world, a vast standing army numbering in the tens of thousands, gathered plenty of intelligence on Israel, militarized their population, and has a history of combat, for starters. But it goes way beyond this, and extends to the broad financial and military support they enjoyed from the IRGC. > "Depends on what you mean by "standards of the Middle East", but just compare Israel($52k) and Gaza ($3455) for 2023:" I'm not comparing it to Israel, which is a standout in the middle east, and among the most technologically developed countries in the world. I'm comparing it to other middle eastern countries. It wasn't exactly destitute, despite its murderous, anti-woman, anti-gay, and antiy-jew jihadi philosophy. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE-xjBRKkPL/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE-xjBRKkPL/ > It's clear that the method of combatant recognition employed by the IDF is flawed, given they're killing aid workers and people from the UN. Have you considered that the some aid workers were also Hamas militants? Or that the UN, through UNRWA, employed Hamas militants? Many of the so-called aid-workers israel killed turned out to actually have been part of Hamas. There is unfortunately extensive evidence that UN employees participated in the 10/7 attacks and the subsequent fighting. And Hamas uses world central kitchen and other aid organization vehicles and infrastructure, so distinguishing is not easy in the first place. > How did you develop your understanding of this situation? And what are you trying to communicate here? I have developed my understanding of this situation from decades of study on this topic, and at least a thousand of hours of research over the past 2.5 years. In the span of 15 years, I've gone from leading so-called pro Palestine rallies to my current positions. What I am trying to communicate is that reality is more nuanced than many (including a younger version of me) like to think. Reality is nuanced, and at odds with the picture you paint.
    - DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
      > Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries This is such an insane statement that you instantly disqualify everything else you say.
      - richardfeynman 8mo ago
        It's hard to believe the earth is round, but it is. As I mentioned above, Hamas's army was comparable to countries like Denmark (20k active soldiers), Finland, the Czech republic (27k active) and maybe even the Netherlands (40k active). Estimates of the size of Hamas's army pre October 7 range from 20k to 40k active combatants, with US intelligence estimates converging on 30k. This is looking just at fighters and excludes Hamas's political wing. They also had tens of thousands of rockets.
        ceejayoz 8mo ago
        I would gently suggest that the relative quality of the soldiers and their equipment is not something you can dismiss here. A handful of Delta Force in Mogadishu shot hundreds (at least) of armed assailants, for example. Hamas certainly doesn’t have the Leopard 2 tanks and F-35s Denmark has. Which is pretty important for the “more powerful” assessment.
        richardfeynman 8mo ago
        Look, I'm obviously not saying that Hamas is stronger than all European countries in every metric, and I already did mention their lack of an air force. All I'm trying to say is that by some standard ways to judge military force (e.g., number of active soldiers) Hamas surprisingly is ahead, which gives lie to the idea that it's a small force. Your position has some nuance, which I appreciate, but another commenter in this very thread wrote "This is such an insane statement that you instantly disqualify everything else you say." It's obviously not an insane statement, given that we can debate things like the accuracy of their munitions and the lack of air power. the other commenter probably simply didn't know how many active soldiers Hamas had and how few some developed European countries have.
  - ceejayoz 8mo ago
    The point is “which belligerent is in rubble” and “which belligerent started shit” isn’t always the same.
    - DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
      No, the point is to justify Israel laying waste to Gaza by equating the Palestinians with the Nazis.
      - ceejayoz 8mo ago
        You might wanna take a peek at my other comments on this thread before assuming that, lol.
nailer 8mo ago
[flagged]
maerF0x0 8mo ago
> Look at any photo of any neighborhood in Israel, is there anywhere that remotely looks similar to the pile of rocks that Gaza looks like now? I'm not pro Israel, especially not after this report, but your point is silly. The US has sold billions in defense weapons/tools to prevent rockets from hitting Israel. Gaza did not have access to the same defenses. That is why the outcomes look different.
stackedinserter 8mo ago
It's been years of missile strikes. No diplomacy worked. "Israel shouldn't exist, period". Then 7/10 happened. What else should've Israel wait for? Dirty bomb? Nuclear attack?
namlem 8mo ago
Israel wasn't bombing those neighborhoods for revenge, they were doing it because Hamas build militarized tunnels under dense civilian neighborhoods.

ceejayoz 8mo ago

Look, I don't disagree, but American cities looked pretty fine after WWII, and Germany was rubble. Which side gets pounded more doesn't inherently prove which side was right. (In this case, I'm of the opinion that both sides committed clear, deliberate war crimes.)

DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
Germany invaded most of Europe and left much of it in rubble. You're picking a very weird, specific comparison (German vs. US cities) and leaving out the obvious comparison (German vs. Soviet or Polish cities). Also, comparing Nazi Germany, a massively powerful industrial state, with a tiny, poor territory under foreign occupation by a vastly superior power is insane.
- richardfeynman 8mo ago
  Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries: more soldiers, more rockets, more war-fighting infrastructure. Gaza wasn't a particularly poor place before the war, certainly not by the standards of the middle east. It had mansions and average salaries that, for some professions, were higher than average salaries in Israel. It was a net food exporter.
  - xg15 8mo ago
    It was also fully blockaded by Israeli (and Egyptian) forces on all sides? Israel was in full control of what was going in an out of it.
    - richardfeynman 8mo ago
      I don't see how that's relevant to the earlier claim, but even this claim of yours is a gross overstatement. There was a partial blockade, not a full blockade, and this partial blockade came after Palestinians launched the second intifada. Prior to the october 7 massacre, perpetrated by Hamas and gazan civilians, tens of thousands of gazans were able to travel out of gaza through egypt and israel, where many of them worked. nearly 75,000 truckloads of food and cargo went into gaza from israel in 2022. Gaza exported lots too.
      - xg15 8mo ago
        My point is that Israel had full control about exactly what Gaza was allowed to import and export (and frequently used those controls for collective punishment as well) I don't quite see how under those circumstances, they were able to build "a more powerful army than many European countries", unless you talk about Luxembourg or the Vatican. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
        youarentrightjr 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        richardfeynman 8mo ago
        Yes, Israel and Egypt together controlled what Gaza was allowed to import and export - not as a form of collective punishment, but to ensure its own security. There's a huge difference between that and a "full blockade" (which is what Russia did to Mariupol early in the war), so precision matters. In terms of Hamas's army being more powerful than that of many European countries, I'll respond to that below. And the Wikipedia article you cite has been manipulated by a band of ideological editors and is not reliable, and has no value (inverse value?) as a citation.
  - youarentrightjr 8mo ago
    > Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries What? You mean countries like Monaco and Liechtenstein? > more soldiers, more rockets Simply counting the # of soldiers or rockets is disingenuous when this is obviously an asymmetric war. It's clear that the method of combatant recognition employed by the IDF is flawed, given they're killing aid workers and people from the UN. Eg, here is Hamas' bread and butter rocket: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket There is more technology in a modern rifle round than in those rockets + launch systems (if you even dare call them that). > more war-fighting infrastructure Please explain what you mean by "war-fighting infrastructure ". > Gaza wasn't a particularly poor place before the war, certainly not by the standards of the middle east Depends on what you mean by "standards of the Middle East", but just compare Israel($52k) and Gaza ($3455) for 2023: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=IL&start=2022 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=PS&start=2022 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... > It had mansions and average salaries that, for some professions, were higher than average salaries in Israel. "The wealthiest in a poor country have more money than the average in a developed country", means what exactly? How did you develop your understanding of this situation? And what are you trying to communicate here?
    - richardfeynman 8mo ago
      I claimed Hamas had a larger and more powerful military than many European countries. This is a fact. > What? You mean countries like Monaco and Liechtenstein? No, my claim is much stronger. I mean Hamas's army was comparable to countries like Denmark (20k active soldiers), Finland, the Czech republic (27k active) and maybe even the Netherlands (40k active). Estimates of the size of Hamas's army pre October 7 range from 20k to 40k active combatants, with US intelligence estimates converging on 30k. This is looking just at fighters and excludes Hamas's political wing. > Simply counting the # of soldiers or rockets is disingenuous when this is obviously an asymmetric war. Counting things like soldiers and military arsenals is the standard way to evaluate military strength. And of course there is a force asymmetry, Israel is a global power and its air force is probably the second most effective in the world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't evaluate Gaza's military the way we would any other. > Please explain what you mean by "war-fighting infrastructure ". Well, for example, Hamas built the largest underground military tunnel system in the known world, a vast standing army numbering in the tens of thousands, gathered plenty of intelligence on Israel, militarized their population, and has a history of combat, for starters. But it goes way beyond this, and extends to the broad financial and military support they enjoyed from the IRGC. > "Depends on what you mean by "standards of the Middle East", but just compare Israel($52k) and Gaza ($3455) for 2023:" I'm not comparing it to Israel, which is a standout in the middle east, and among the most technologically developed countries in the world. I'm comparing it to other middle eastern countries. It wasn't exactly destitute, despite its murderous, anti-woman, anti-gay, and antiy-jew jihadi philosophy. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE-xjBRKkPL/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/DE-xjBRKkPL/ > It's clear that the method of combatant recognition employed by the IDF is flawed, given they're killing aid workers and people from the UN. Have you considered that the some aid workers were also Hamas militants? Or that the UN, through UNRWA, employed Hamas militants? Many of the so-called aid-workers israel killed turned out to actually have been part of Hamas. There is unfortunately extensive evidence that UN employees participated in the 10/7 attacks and the subsequent fighting. And Hamas uses world central kitchen and other aid organization vehicles and infrastructure, so distinguishing is not easy in the first place. > How did you develop your understanding of this situation? And what are you trying to communicate here? I have developed my understanding of this situation from decades of study on this topic, and at least a thousand of hours of research over the past 2.5 years. In the span of 15 years, I've gone from leading so-called pro Palestine rallies to my current positions. What I am trying to communicate is that reality is more nuanced than many (including a younger version of me) like to think. Reality is nuanced, and at odds with the picture you paint.
  - DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
    > Gaza began the war with a more powerful army than many European countries This is such an insane statement that you instantly disqualify everything else you say.
    - richardfeynman 8mo ago
      It's hard to believe the earth is round, but it is. As I mentioned above, Hamas's army was comparable to countries like Denmark (20k active soldiers), Finland, the Czech republic (27k active) and maybe even the Netherlands (40k active). Estimates of the size of Hamas's army pre October 7 range from 20k to 40k active combatants, with US intelligence estimates converging on 30k. This is looking just at fighters and excludes Hamas's political wing. They also had tens of thousands of rockets.
      - ceejayoz 8mo ago
        I would gently suggest that the relative quality of the soldiers and their equipment is not something you can dismiss here. A handful of Delta Force in Mogadishu shot hundreds (at least) of armed assailants, for example. Hamas certainly doesn’t have the Leopard 2 tanks and F-35s Denmark has. Which is pretty important for the “more powerful” assessment.
        richardfeynman 8mo ago
        Look, I'm obviously not saying that Hamas is stronger than all European countries in every metric, and I already did mention their lack of an air force. All I'm trying to say is that by some standard ways to judge military force (e.g., number of active soldiers) Hamas surprisingly is ahead, which gives lie to the idea that it's a small force. Your position has some nuance, which I appreciate, but another commenter in this very thread wrote "This is such an insane statement that you instantly disqualify everything else you say." It's obviously not an insane statement, given that we can debate things like the accuracy of their munitions and the lack of air power. the other commenter probably simply didn't know how many active soldiers Hamas had and how few some developed European countries have.
- ceejayoz 8mo ago
  The point is “which belligerent is in rubble” and “which belligerent started shit” isn’t always the same.
  - DiogenesKynikos 8mo ago
    No, the point is to justify Israel laying waste to Gaza by equating the Palestinians with the Nazis.
    - ceejayoz 8mo ago
      You might wanna take a peek at my other comments on this thread before assuming that, lol.

nailer 8mo ago

[flagged]

maerF0x0 8mo ago

> Look at any photo of any neighborhood in Israel, is there anywhere that remotely looks similar to the pile of rocks that Gaza looks like now? I'm not pro Israel, especially not after this report, but your point is silly. The US has sold billions in defense weapons/tools to prevent rockets from hitting Israel. Gaza did not have access to the same defenses. That is why the outcomes look different.

stackedinserter 8mo ago

It's been years of missile strikes. No diplomacy worked. "Israel shouldn't exist, period". Then 7/10 happened. What else should've Israel wait for? Dirty bomb? Nuclear attack?

namlem 8mo ago

Israel wasn't bombing those neighborhoods for revenge, they were doing it because Hamas build militarized tunnels under dense civilian neighborhoods.