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Man, I love Next ... but I also love Vite ... and I hate the Next team, because they focus on fancy new features for 0.1% of their users, at the complete expens

Man, I love Next ... but I also love Vite ... and I hate the Next team, because they focus on fancy new features for 0.1% of their users, at the complete expense of the other 99.9% of the Next community (who they basically ignore). This gives someone like me everything we want. Better performance is something the Next community has been begging for for years: the Next team ignored them, but not the Cloudflare team. Meanwhile Vite is a better core layer than the garbage the Next people use, but you still get the full Next functionality. I wish Cloudflare the best of luck with this fork: I hope it succeeds and gets proven so I can use it at my company!

3rodents 8mo ago
What is it you love about Next that isn’t tied to Vercel and isn’t available elsewhere? I love Next too but I find the value is inextricably linked to Vercel. I can’t imagine choosing to use Next if I’m not choosing it for Vercel’s fancy stuff.
- tengbretson 8mo ago
  React server components are dope. Server actions are dangerous but powerful. No one has a more mature implementation of either of these than Next.
  - dyllon 8mo ago
    Of course no one has a more mature implementation of it than Next. The Next.js team designed it themselves!
  - teaearlgraycold 8mo ago
    I still just prefer having a more clear separation of concerns with API routes instead of using server components. I want my frameworks to be way less fancy than what Next is pushing out these days. I get the feeling we're dealing with the consequences of Vercel employees needing to justify their promotions.
  - sgarland 8mo ago
    It is hilarious to me that the industry has reinvented serving HTML to clients, but with many intermediate steps, and this is heralded as groundbreaking.
    - Vinnl 8mo ago
      You'd almost wonder if there wouldn't be more to it.
  - braebo 8mo ago
    React and RSC are not dope they are a kludge and the only reason you’re blind to that fact is because you’re React brained and have no experience with modern alternatives that are actually good like SvelteKit or SolidStart.
thousand_nights 8mo ago
at my job we have some 7+ year old nextjs apps that don't receive new features but still do their jobs perfectly fine, and they keep changing random shit around for no reason, we've had to waste time on multiple refactors already for major nextjs version bumps once the older ones are no longer supported
- mikestorrent 8mo ago
  Is there any front end framework that doesn't do this? I dropped out of the front end years ago, and it seems to just get worse every year with a profusion of confusion. Doesn't anyone yearn for back when we didn't have to build the front end at all?? Just emit some HTML and serve up some JS files from the backend, and everything just flows from there? Someone go make an AI rewrite of Apache+Mod-PHP and sell it to zoomers as the hip new thing already please
  - nicoburns 8mo ago
    > Is there any front end framework that doesn't do this? React, if you are judicious about what additional packages you use on top of it. > I dropped out of the front end years ago, and it seems to just get worse every year with a profusion of confusion. This has actually gotten somewhat better in recent years starting with esbuild which made it possible to use a simple single-binary tool for bundling.
  - kopirgan 8mo ago
    What do you use?!
  - meiuqer 8mo ago
    I know everyone loves to hate Angular but it is in a really good place at the moment. If you don't need SSR and just want to build an SPA, Angular is the way to go imho.
- IgorPartola 8mo ago
  Is there any reason to keep upgrading if the apps keep doing their jobs perfectly fine? Pull in a stable version of the framework and the associated docs and stay there.
himata4113 8mo ago
I mean you don't want really want to use javascript for the backend anyway... What's the problem with just using vite and any backend of your choosing?
qudat 8mo ago
Next is the worst framework I’ve ever used next to rails. It’s pure overhead for most apps.
- lateforwork 8mo ago
  Try mvc-router, see here: https://github.com/wisercoder/mvc-router/tree/master/DemoApp/Client https://github.com/wisercoder/mvc-router/tree/master/DemoApp... React was originally meant to be the 'V' in MVC. You can still use it that way and React becomes very simple when you only use it for UI. Why do data fetching in a React component?
  - qudat 8mo ago
    I built something similar actually: https://starfx.bower.sh https://starfx.bower.sh
- JustSkyfall 8mo ago
  Rails 8 is surprisingly good nowadays. It absolutely still has its share of problems (e.g. Bundler being slow, the frontend story being crappy without Inertia, lack of types which is a biggie, memory) but it is still a fantastic framework imo.
  - dmix 8mo ago
    Why Inertia.js? I quite enjoy not using JS heavy frontends in Rails by leaning on Turbo and light Stimulus JS controllers where needed. My experience going hard into Vue+Rails was full of pain and I've rediscovered why server first makes everything easier to reason about instead of duplicating tons of logic + dealing with constant async issues (particularly around automated testing and complex data loading).
    - moviedo 8mo ago
      Inertia because it’s a plug-in replacement for ruby html templating aka erb. Try it out, it’s basically the same stuff you get from erb, without the need for Turbo’s web sockets. You get server side rendering, all the great BE stuff like server side validation, but no SPA headache. I find the best DX with Adonis/nodejs and typescript.
paxys 8mo ago
You think you'll get better long-term support from an experiment that a single engineer did in his spare time?
- hu3 8mo ago
  Isn't that how Linux started?
  - paxys 8mo ago
    No, not at all
    - hu3 8mo ago
      For all I know Linux started a hobby project from one person. So entertain me if you disagree.
    - hungryhobbit 8mo ago
      Actually, that's exactly how it started: read Linus Torvalds' "Just for Fun".
      - paxys 8mo ago
        Was Linux owned by a large company? Was the maintainer getting paychecks from that company? Was it profit motivated? Was it released as an AI experiment? If the similarity is "they are both open source projects" then so are about a million others. 99.99% of them don't get any traction beyond the first week.
        rovr138 8mo ago
        The similarity is to, > You think you'll get better long-term support from an experiment that a single engineer did in his spare time? Linus started it as an experiment. That's a single engineer doing it on his spare time. Do you think Linux doesn't do long-term support right? The one changing the goal post is you. https://github.com/cloudflare/vinext https://github.com/cloudflare/vinext It is MIT licensed. It can be used and maintained by anyone. If it'll get adoption like Linux did, that's different. But the base is there.
impulser_ 8mo ago
Yeah, Vercel should have done this with NextJS a while ago. There is a reason why quite literally every other framework uses Vite because it amazing, easy to use, and easy to extend. Everything just becomes a plugin.
chris37879 8mo ago
It may be sacrilege to bring it into this conversation, but I've spent the last year building a fairly large community site in Nuxt, vite has been wonderful, though I prefer vue over react. I am a little annoyed I paid for NuxtUI Pro like 3 months before it became free, but whatever.
anonzzzies 8mo ago
I don't get it, honest question (like the others), what exactly do you love?
aleksandrh 8mo ago
Weird, I hate Next and I love Vite. We have a big (I mean _really_ big) production app that runs on Next.js at work and it's the slowest thing I've ever worked on. I had to upgrade my machine to an M4 Pro just to get local dev compile times down from 5-8 minutes to ~30-60 seconds per route. And my hot refreshes are down from ~15-20 seconds to 5-10. It's _bad_. All the Next.js team does is give you the run-around and link to their docs and say here, try these steps, you're probably doing something wrong, etc. Nope. The framework is just slow. They use simple toy apps to demo how fast it is, but nobody tells you how slow it is at scale.
- nicoburns 8mo ago
  Damn, that's bad. You can compile C++ faster than that!
- lebuin 8mo ago
  If you are using webpack, see if you can make the switch to turbopack. It cut my build times from ~1 minute to 15 seconds, incremental builds are down from 10 seconds to 2. Memory usage is down a ton as well. But if you rely on webpack plugins this may not be an option for you.
  - Griffinsauce 8mo ago
    I've been pushing our apps at work in this direction and it's definitely worth it. If you're relying on webpack plugins heavily, I'd consider that a liability either way. It's going to seriously hamper your portability to other frameworks and build tools and even new versions of the current ones. You can easily run turbopack for development / preview environments and webpack for production(-like) ones btw. as long as you don't rely on custom magic.
codenomnom 8mo ago
This is EXACTLY how I've felt. We've said it out loud multiple times but I think we never did it together. I just wrote an open letter to fix Next.js. The goal is to compile a list of needs for whoever decides to fix those in any way possible... https://please-fix-next.com/ https://please-fix-next.com/

3rodents 8mo ago

What is it you love about Next that isn’t tied to Vercel and isn’t available elsewhere? I love Next too but I find the value is inextricably linked to Vercel. I can’t imagine choosing to use Next if I’m not choosing it for Vercel’s fancy stuff.

tengbretson 8mo ago
React server components are dope. Server actions are dangerous but powerful. No one has a more mature implementation of either of these than Next.
- dyllon 8mo ago
  Of course no one has a more mature implementation of it than Next. The Next.js team designed it themselves!
- teaearlgraycold 8mo ago
  I still just prefer having a more clear separation of concerns with API routes instead of using server components. I want my frameworks to be way less fancy than what Next is pushing out these days. I get the feeling we're dealing with the consequences of Vercel employees needing to justify their promotions.
- sgarland 8mo ago
  It is hilarious to me that the industry has reinvented serving HTML to clients, but with many intermediate steps, and this is heralded as groundbreaking.
  - Vinnl 8mo ago
    You'd almost wonder if there wouldn't be more to it.
- braebo 8mo ago
  React and RSC are not dope they are a kludge and the only reason you’re blind to that fact is because you’re React brained and have no experience with modern alternatives that are actually good like SvelteKit or SolidStart.

thousand_nights 8mo ago

at my job we have some 7+ year old nextjs apps that don't receive new features but still do their jobs perfectly fine, and they keep changing random shit around for no reason, we've had to waste time on multiple refactors already for major nextjs version bumps once the older ones are no longer supported

mikestorrent 8mo ago
Is there any front end framework that doesn't do this? I dropped out of the front end years ago, and it seems to just get worse every year with a profusion of confusion. Doesn't anyone yearn for back when we didn't have to build the front end at all?? Just emit some HTML and serve up some JS files from the backend, and everything just flows from there? Someone go make an AI rewrite of Apache+Mod-PHP and sell it to zoomers as the hip new thing already please
- nicoburns 8mo ago
  > Is there any front end framework that doesn't do this? React, if you are judicious about what additional packages you use on top of it. > I dropped out of the front end years ago, and it seems to just get worse every year with a profusion of confusion. This has actually gotten somewhat better in recent years starting with esbuild which made it possible to use a simple single-binary tool for bundling.
- kopirgan 8mo ago
  What do you use?!
- meiuqer 8mo ago
  I know everyone loves to hate Angular but it is in a really good place at the moment. If you don't need SSR and just want to build an SPA, Angular is the way to go imho.
IgorPartola 8mo ago
Is there any reason to keep upgrading if the apps keep doing their jobs perfectly fine? Pull in a stable version of the framework and the associated docs and stay there.

himata4113 8mo ago

I mean you don't want really want to use javascript for the backend anyway... What's the problem with just using vite and any backend of your choosing?

qudat 8mo ago

Next is the worst framework I’ve ever used next to rails. It’s pure overhead for most apps.

lateforwork 8mo ago
Try mvc-router, see here: https://github.com/wisercoder/mvc-router/tree/master/DemoApp/Client https://github.com/wisercoder/mvc-router/tree/master/DemoApp... React was originally meant to be the 'V' in MVC. You can still use it that way and React becomes very simple when you only use it for UI. Why do data fetching in a React component?
- qudat 8mo ago
  I built something similar actually: https://starfx.bower.sh https://starfx.bower.sh
JustSkyfall 8mo ago
Rails 8 is surprisingly good nowadays. It absolutely still has its share of problems (e.g. Bundler being slow, the frontend story being crappy without Inertia, lack of types which is a biggie, memory) but it is still a fantastic framework imo.
- dmix 8mo ago
  Why Inertia.js? I quite enjoy not using JS heavy frontends in Rails by leaning on Turbo and light Stimulus JS controllers where needed. My experience going hard into Vue+Rails was full of pain and I've rediscovered why server first makes everything easier to reason about instead of duplicating tons of logic + dealing with constant async issues (particularly around automated testing and complex data loading).
  - moviedo 8mo ago
    Inertia because it’s a plug-in replacement for ruby html templating aka erb. Try it out, it’s basically the same stuff you get from erb, without the need for Turbo’s web sockets. You get server side rendering, all the great BE stuff like server side validation, but no SPA headache. I find the best DX with Adonis/nodejs and typescript.

paxys 8mo ago

You think you'll get better long-term support from an experiment that a single engineer did in his spare time?

hu3 8mo ago
Isn't that how Linux started?
- paxys 8mo ago
  No, not at all
  - hu3 8mo ago
    For all I know Linux started a hobby project from one person. So entertain me if you disagree.
  - hungryhobbit 8mo ago
    Actually, that's exactly how it started: read Linus Torvalds' "Just for Fun".
    - paxys 8mo ago
      Was Linux owned by a large company? Was the maintainer getting paychecks from that company? Was it profit motivated? Was it released as an AI experiment? If the similarity is "they are both open source projects" then so are about a million others. 99.99% of them don't get any traction beyond the first week.
      - rovr138 8mo ago
        The similarity is to, > You think you'll get better long-term support from an experiment that a single engineer did in his spare time? Linus started it as an experiment. That's a single engineer doing it on his spare time. Do you think Linux doesn't do long-term support right? The one changing the goal post is you. https://github.com/cloudflare/vinext https://github.com/cloudflare/vinext It is MIT licensed. It can be used and maintained by anyone. If it'll get adoption like Linux did, that's different. But the base is there.

impulser_ 8mo ago

Yeah, Vercel should have done this with NextJS a while ago. There is a reason why quite literally every other framework uses Vite because it amazing, easy to use, and easy to extend. Everything just becomes a plugin.

chris37879 8mo ago

It may be sacrilege to bring it into this conversation, but I've spent the last year building a fairly large community site in Nuxt, vite has been wonderful, though I prefer vue over react. I am a little annoyed I paid for NuxtUI Pro like 3 months before it became free, but whatever.

anonzzzies 8mo ago

I don't get it, honest question (like the others), what exactly do you love?

aleksandrh 8mo ago

Weird, I hate Next and I love Vite. We have a big (I mean _really_ big) production app that runs on Next.js at work and it's the slowest thing I've ever worked on. I had to upgrade my machine to an M4 Pro just to get local dev compile times down from 5-8 minutes to ~30-60 seconds per route. And my hot refreshes are down from ~15-20 seconds to 5-10. It's _bad_. All the Next.js team does is give you the run-around and link to their docs and say here, try these steps, you're probably doing something wrong, etc. Nope. The framework is just slow. They use simple toy apps to demo how fast it is, but nobody tells you how slow it is at scale.

nicoburns 8mo ago
Damn, that's bad. You can compile C++ faster than that!
lebuin 8mo ago
If you are using webpack, see if you can make the switch to turbopack. It cut my build times from ~1 minute to 15 seconds, incremental builds are down from 10 seconds to 2. Memory usage is down a ton as well. But if you rely on webpack plugins this may not be an option for you.
- Griffinsauce 8mo ago
  I've been pushing our apps at work in this direction and it's definitely worth it. If you're relying on webpack plugins heavily, I'd consider that a liability either way. It's going to seriously hamper your portability to other frameworks and build tools and even new versions of the current ones. You can easily run turbopack for development / preview environments and webpack for production(-like) ones btw. as long as you don't rely on custom magic.

codenomnom 8mo ago

This is EXACTLY how I've felt. We've said it out loud multiple times but I think we never did it together. I just wrote an open letter to fix Next.js. The goal is to compile a list of needs for whoever decides to fix those in any way possible... https://please-fix-next.com/ https://please-fix-next.com/