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The problem is that both sides lie flagrantly with such frequency that very few claims about the war can be taken at face value. On the other side there was th
by dralley 8mo ago
The problem is that both sides lie flagrantly with such frequency that very few claims about the war can be taken at face value.
On the other side there was the famous "hospital bombing" news event early in the war where it was claimed that 500 people were killed, and then within a couple of hours it became obvious that the explosion was caused by a misfiring Hamas rocket, with video from multiple angles of the failure, that it hit an empty parking lot in front of the hospital and only blew out the windows and burnt a few cars, and that no more than a handful of people had been killed.
And also the repeated claims that Israel were lying about the tunnels under Gaza Hospitals, and make videos of one such strike (a bunker buster penetrating the parking lot just outside the entrance) go viral, only for Hamas to later announce that one of the replacement leaders for Sinwar had been killed in that strike, and for excavation to find the bunkers / tunnel network underneath that very hospital.
As well as, earlier in the war, a Hamas bunker w/ data center equipment directly underneath the UNRWA HQ in Gaza.
None of that justifies genuine instances of war crimes and atrocities that Israel may have committed, but there's a reason why people tune out some of the extreme claims that fly around.
- Vasbarlog 8mo ago> problem is that both sides lie flagrantly And yet one side is committing genocide.
- suzzer99 8mo agoAnd one side started it by killing 1,200 civilians and kidnapping 250. Which doesn't justify genocide. But it does factor into the response when one side is governed by a death cult that has no problem letting scores of their own civilians die if it furthers their cause.
- Vasbarlog 8mo agoOh, I didn’t know that the whole conflict started on October 6th. One side is governed by a death cult for sure, if you look at how many children they indiscriminately kill.
- mhb 8mo agoWhen do you suppose the conflict started?
- Vasbarlog 8mo agoWhen the first Israeli settler stole the home of a Palestinian.
- thenaturalist 8mo ago[flagged]
- moi2388 8mo agoIn the 1947 Palestinian civil war, and they have been attacking and trying to destroy Israel ever since? Also look at what they did in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan. Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah are not the good guys here. Not saying Israel is all good either, but let’s put it this way. Where would you want your wife or children to live if given the chance? You can live as a Muslim in Israel, you can’t live as a Christian or Jew in Palestine.
- tovej 8mo agoHoly misinformation. 1) Israel attacked Arab Palestine and the neighboring Arab states first, in plan Dalet. 2) Christians and Jews absolutely can live in Palestine. They were afforded that in the Ottoman empire (the Dhimmi) and they are afforded that now. 3) Muslims do not get to govern themselves in Israel. Every other religions can choose their own representatives in official matter, but Islam gets a token person selected by the Israeli state.
- pcthrowaway 8mo ago> 2) Christians and Jews absolutely can live in Palestine. They were afforded that in the Ottoman empire (the Dhimmi) and they are afforded that now. Add to this, Amira Haas (Jewish, anti-Zionist Haaretz journalist) lives in Ramallah. There was also a Palestinian man who converted to Judaism living in the West Bank, but he was killed... by the IDF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Ben_Avraham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Ben_Avraham
- cess11 8mo ago[flagged]
- manyaoman 8mo agoI don't think Hamas started it, but they definitely escalated it.
- dralley 8mo ago[flagged]
- incahoots 8mo agoHere I thought leaving reddit would provide a break of low quality bait, yet here we are.
- Vasbarlog 8mo agoExactly! Wtf
- Vasbarlog 8mo agoWhat Israel is doing is genocide. The International Association of Genocide Scholars say so https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/IAGS-Resolution-on-Gaza-FINAL.pdf https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/IAGS... . Is there anyone who is arguing, in ”good faith” as you say, that the atrocities of October 7th were a genocide?
- thenaturalist 8mo agoAh, the association where anyone paying a 30 USD annual fee can become a member...
- Vasbarlog 8mo agoDo you have a better authority that says otherwise?
- TurdF3rguson 8mo agoThat was about a month before the ceasefire. I'm sure we're all very happy that's it's no longer the case.
- tovej 8mo agoThe genocide still continues. They are still killing people, and are not letting people return to Gaza.
- khazhoux 8mo agoAnd the other side just. won’t. stop. attacking. That’s really the problem, innit? Palestine can’t stop poking, Israel overreact. 20 GOTO 10.
- Vasbarlog 8mo agoYou could say that about Israel too you know. The other side just. Won’t. Stop. Attacking. Israelis can’t stop sniping children.
- cholantesh 8mo agoBut not the video in the OP which demonstrates that the IDF were, in fact firing on aid workers and refugees as they had been accused of, and certainly not the hours of footage of the IDF brazenly taking human shields over the years while insisting they didn't, or the reports of the IDF arming settlers. Curious that you can't enumerate any of these, and you're happy to take at face value a claim the IDF makes but doesn't allow independent third parties to verify (a Hamas bunker w/ data center equipment directly underneath the UNRWA HQ in Gaza) while abjuring such behaviour.
- dralley 8mo agoIndependent 3rd parties were brought in to verify, though. I already said I don't condone any instances of legitimate war crimes. I don't think enumerating everything that has ever happened by either side is very useful. But it's a fact that both sides lie flagrantly about atrocities. Lots of the footage in the early days of the war that was claimed to be from Gaza was actually recycled from the Syrian civil war. If you want me to start listing some BS that Israel has done, fine - the calendar stunt was ridiculous (if you have followed the conflict, you probably have heard of it). What goes on in the west bank is disgraceful. There are plenty of statements by Israeli politicians that are basically genocidal language (though you can play that game with most countries, random US politicians say psychotic shit all the time).
- cess11 8mo agoCan you link to those reports?
- cholantesh 8mo ago>Independent 3rd parties were brought in to verify, though. Reuters was given an IDF escort as they were walked through the tunnel system, during which a room with some servers was called a Hamas data centre, and they nodded along. That's not quite the same thing. >Lots of the footage in the early days of the war that was claimed to be from Gaza was actually recycled from the Syrian civil war. Lots of footage that Hamas or advocates for Palestine released or Twitter randos? Not all of those things are equivalent to Israel making a claim.
- sosomoxie 8mo ago> On the other side there was the famous "hospital bombing" news event early in the war where it was claimed that 500 people were killed, and then within a couple of hours it became obvious that the explosion was caused by a misfiring Hamas rocket, This is an Israeli lie. Not only has Israel bombed all of the hospitals, they murdered an entire NICU of infants. I can't believe people are still trying to justify blowing up hospitals!
- dralley 8mo agoNo. This is about a specific claim. Hamas claimed that Israel killed 500 people in a hospital bombing, and that was indisputably a lie. Videos show that it was a Hamas rocket, not a bomb. Pictures show that the damage was limited to a few burned cars and broken windows and a pothole sized dent in the asphalt. There were no mass casualties and every credible news outlet that initially reported that there were, walked it back when evidence proved otherwise. https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207173798/fake-accounts-old-videos-and-rumors-fuel-chaos-around-gaza-hospital-explosion https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207173798/fake-accounts-old-... https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/media/gaza-hospital-coverage-walk-back https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/24/media/gaza-hospital-coverage-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaza-hospital-blast-evidence-israel-hamas/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/10/26/gaz... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/gaza-hospital-explosion-misinformation-reporting/675719/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/gaza-hospi...\
- Qem 8mo ago> On the other side there was the famous "hospital bombing" news event early in the war where it was claimed that 500 people were killed, and then within a couple of hours it became obvious that the explosion was caused by a misfiring Hamas rocket... Forensic-architecture published a report on that too: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disinformation-al-ahli-hospital https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/israeli-disi...