5 ms·

I'm a bit torn on this because (at least in the sci-fi utopia stories) when a critical mass of people are recording full time then interpersonal crime and anti-

I'm a bit torn on this because (at least in the sci-fi utopia stories) when a critical mass of people are recording full time then interpersonal crime and anti-social behavior is strongly discouraged. It's like an honor-based culture at scale.

roughly 8mo ago
50 years ago anti-social behavior included homosexuality.
- throwway120385 8mo ago
  Also included drinking from the fountain or sitting in seats or eating at a restaurant with people colored differently from you. I wonder what we're going to make "antisocial" in the next 50 years and whether or not we'll be punishing people for things we'll consider benign again in 75 years. The whole "let's surveil everything to stop all antisocial behaviors" might be going too far just like the idea that everyone should open carry to reduce crime.
  - tclancy 8mo ago
    Can you show your math on how an example of the opposite of what the person you are responding to you can also mean the same thing? Feel free to skip if you live in a non-Euclidian geometry, but the OP was saying such a thing would have been likely to get people killed in the past for violating a society's mores.
emptybits 8mo ago
> It's like an honor-based culture at scale. Except the basis of that culture would not be honour, would it? A critical mass of people scrutinizing and reporting others' actions might lead to a compliance-based culture. It's different IMO. i.e. intrinsic motivation to behave well (honour, morality, decency) versus extrinsic motivation to behave well (fear of unpopularity, law enforcement, mob reaction, etc.)
- zephen 8mo ago
  I think you're missing the point. Or, on re-reading, the parent is missing the point. "Honor culture" or "Culture of honor" is the term for people who are thin-skinned, quick to offense, and worried more about appearances than substance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_Uni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing It's all about a shame-based society. When someone is made to feel ashamed, they might lash out. It's practically the opposite of guilt, which is directed inwardly. At the margins, a shamed person might commit mass murder, while a guilty person might commit suicide. Before you get to the margin, both guilty people and shamed people might alter their behavior in beneficial ways, but they do it for subtly different reasons.
  - emptybits 8mo ago
    Thanks. I had to be reminded about that phrase "honor culture" and, yes, I've heard that definition before. I was focused on how I think an "honourable person" behaves, which is ... IMO ... someone who behaves well regardless of whether or not someone is watching them. i.e. being guided by a personal moral compass, without cultural shame, guilt, government laws, religious conventions, or physical fear being primary motivators But of course, if I adopt a religion's or legal system's idea of morality as my personal compass (certainly the easiest way to go, and easily installed in youth) ... then the distinction falls apart. Cheers.
    - zephen 8mo ago
      > But of course, if I adopt a religion's or legal system's idea of morality as my personal compass (certainly the easiest way to go, and easily installed in youth) ... then the distinction falls apart. That's obviously part of it, but not the entirety of it. Guiding your own behavior is different than feeling compelled to also dictate others' behavior. Honor culture is usually putatively religious, yet is diametrically opposed to "judge not lest ye be judged." To be fully immersed in it is to feel personally slighted by any perceived transgressions against the normal order of things, and to have zero sense of proportion about which things are truly harmful to all of us, and which things are simply not how we would do things or prefer things to be done.
phoronixrly 8mo ago
Which sci-fi utopia stories exactly are you referring to? Please remind me, because all the scifi with ubiquitous surveillace I recall are about dystopias instead.
- morkalork 8mo ago
  Right, this is more like Black Mirror S1E3 "The Entire History of You"
- tantalor 8mo ago
  I can't recall exactly but it may have been The Light of Other Days
  - r2_pilot 8mo ago
    I believe The Light of Other Days has slow-glass that you expose to a scene, it drinks it in, and then plays it back later.
jibal 8mo ago
That's the opposite of honor-based, and those stories are warnings about going down that path.
- zephen 8mo ago
  "Honor-based" has a specific meaning, and it is not good. If the parent is torn about whether this is good or bad, they're really not paying attention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_Uni...
- jibal 8mo ago
  P.S. The response to my comment is complete nonsense. "honor-based", as used here to mean acting with integrity, has nothing at all to do with honor killings.
  - zephen 8mo ago
    P.P.S. "Honor-based" has a historic meaning. It is you who are attempting to change it. That... Usually doesn't go well. https://social.psych.iastate.edu/about-my-research/research-on-culture-of-honor/ https://social.psych.iastate.edu/about-my-research/research-...
  - jibal 8mo ago
    Again, "honor-based" as used in this discussion is about integrity and has nothing to do with cultures of honor ... notably the word "based" doesn't occur anywhere in the cited material. No one is trying to change anything but someone is trolling hard (and not acting with integrity), and threats about things not going well are unwelcome. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/honor https://www.dictionary.com/browse/honor > 1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. Enough (more than enough) said. Over and out forever.
burkaman 8mo ago
Mass recording discourages social behavior, not anti-social behavior.
- drawfloat 8mo ago
  Recording people going about their day is anti social behaviour.
pityJuke 8mo ago
Yes look at this article showing all of the wonderful anti-social behaviour prevented by smart glasses: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx23ke7rm7go https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx23ke7rm7go (hint: smart glasses encourage anti social behaviour for online clout.)
bryanrasmussen 8mo ago
from my recollection in most of the stories that is the primary starting point of the narrative but as the story goes along it turns out what you have is a dystopia, which is what it looks like we would actually get.
toomuchtodo 8mo ago
https://www.wired.com/2013/12/glasshole/ https://www.wired.com/2013/12/glasshole/ https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Glasshole https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Glasshole https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=glasshole&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
thomassmith65 8mo ago
It will be a delight for anyone who ever wished there existed footage of every time they vomited in public or face-planted after tripping on a cobblestone.
AlecSchueler 8mo ago
Would you consider East Germany a sort of social Utopia?
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
Etheryte 8mo ago
Firstly, fear and honor are far from being the same thing. Second, we already have this in our society today via smartphones and things have not changed for the better. If anything, society is more torn than ever.
Klaster_1 8mo ago
Honor culture is what happens when there's no reliable institutions or evidence, so people have to defend reputation themselves - usually with retaliation and interpersonal violence. Always-on cameras are the opposite idea: enforcement moves outside the individual, which is basically how honor cultures stop being a thing.

roughly 8mo ago

50 years ago anti-social behavior included homosexuality.

throwway120385 8mo ago
Also included drinking from the fountain or sitting in seats or eating at a restaurant with people colored differently from you. I wonder what we're going to make "antisocial" in the next 50 years and whether or not we'll be punishing people for things we'll consider benign again in 75 years. The whole "let's surveil everything to stop all antisocial behaviors" might be going too far just like the idea that everyone should open carry to reduce crime.
- tclancy 8mo ago
  Can you show your math on how an example of the opposite of what the person you are responding to you can also mean the same thing? Feel free to skip if you live in a non-Euclidian geometry, but the OP was saying such a thing would have been likely to get people killed in the past for violating a society's mores.

emptybits 8mo ago

> It's like an honor-based culture at scale. Except the basis of that culture would not be honour, would it? A critical mass of people scrutinizing and reporting others' actions might lead to a compliance-based culture. It's different IMO. i.e. intrinsic motivation to behave well (honour, morality, decency) versus extrinsic motivation to behave well (fear of unpopularity, law enforcement, mob reaction, etc.)

zephen 8mo ago
I think you're missing the point. Or, on re-reading, the parent is missing the point. "Honor culture" or "Culture of honor" is the term for people who are thin-skinned, quick to offense, and worried more about appearances than substance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_Uni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing It's all about a shame-based society. When someone is made to feel ashamed, they might lash out. It's practically the opposite of guilt, which is directed inwardly. At the margins, a shamed person might commit mass murder, while a guilty person might commit suicide. Before you get to the margin, both guilty people and shamed people might alter their behavior in beneficial ways, but they do it for subtly different reasons.
- emptybits 8mo ago
  Thanks. I had to be reminded about that phrase "honor culture" and, yes, I've heard that definition before. I was focused on how I think an "honourable person" behaves, which is ... IMO ... someone who behaves well regardless of whether or not someone is watching them. i.e. being guided by a personal moral compass, without cultural shame, guilt, government laws, religious conventions, or physical fear being primary motivators But of course, if I adopt a religion's or legal system's idea of morality as my personal compass (certainly the easiest way to go, and easily installed in youth) ... then the distinction falls apart. Cheers.
  - zephen 8mo ago
    > But of course, if I adopt a religion's or legal system's idea of morality as my personal compass (certainly the easiest way to go, and easily installed in youth) ... then the distinction falls apart. That's obviously part of it, but not the entirety of it. Guiding your own behavior is different than feeling compelled to also dictate others' behavior. Honor culture is usually putatively religious, yet is diametrically opposed to "judge not lest ye be judged." To be fully immersed in it is to feel personally slighted by any perceived transgressions against the normal order of things, and to have zero sense of proportion about which things are truly harmful to all of us, and which things are simply not how we would do things or prefer things to be done.

phoronixrly 8mo ago

Which sci-fi utopia stories exactly are you referring to? Please remind me, because all the scifi with ubiquitous surveillace I recall are about dystopias instead.

morkalork 8mo ago
Right, this is more like Black Mirror S1E3 "The Entire History of You"
tantalor 8mo ago
I can't recall exactly but it may have been The Light of Other Days
- r2_pilot 8mo ago
  I believe The Light of Other Days has slow-glass that you expose to a scene, it drinks it in, and then plays it back later.

jibal 8mo ago

That's the opposite of honor-based, and those stories are warnings about going down that path.

zephen 8mo ago
"Honor-based" has a specific meaning, and it is not good. If the parent is torn about whether this is good or bad, they're really not paying attention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_honor_(Southern_Uni...
jibal 8mo ago
P.S. The response to my comment is complete nonsense. "honor-based", as used here to mean acting with integrity, has nothing at all to do with honor killings.
- zephen 8mo ago
  P.P.S. "Honor-based" has a historic meaning. It is you who are attempting to change it. That... Usually doesn't go well. https://social.psych.iastate.edu/about-my-research/research-on-culture-of-honor/ https://social.psych.iastate.edu/about-my-research/research-...
- jibal 8mo ago
  Again, "honor-based" as used in this discussion is about integrity and has nothing to do with cultures of honor ... notably the word "based" doesn't occur anywhere in the cited material. No one is trying to change anything but someone is trolling hard (and not acting with integrity), and threats about things not going well are unwelcome. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/honor https://www.dictionary.com/browse/honor > 1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. Enough (more than enough) said. Over and out forever.

burkaman 8mo ago

Mass recording discourages social behavior, not anti-social behavior.

drawfloat 8mo ago
Recording people going about their day is anti social behaviour.

pityJuke 8mo ago

Yes look at this article showing all of the wonderful anti-social behaviour prevented by smart glasses: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx23ke7rm7go https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx23ke7rm7go (hint: smart glasses encourage anti social behaviour for online clout.)

bryanrasmussen 8mo ago

from my recollection in most of the stories that is the primary starting point of the narrative but as the story goes along it turns out what you have is a dystopia, which is what it looks like we would actually get.

toomuchtodo 8mo ago

https://www.wired.com/2013/12/glasshole/ https://www.wired.com/2013/12/glasshole/ https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Glasshole https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Glasshole https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=glasshole&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

thomassmith65 8mo ago

It will be a delight for anyone who ever wished there existed footage of every time they vomited in public or face-planted after tripping on a cobblestone.

AlecSchueler 8mo ago

Would you consider East Germany a sort of social Utopia?

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

Etheryte 8mo ago

Firstly, fear and honor are far from being the same thing. Second, we already have this in our society today via smartphones and things have not changed for the better. If anything, society is more torn than ever.

Klaster_1 8mo ago

Honor culture is what happens when there's no reliable institutions or evidence, so people have to defend reputation themselves - usually with retaliation and interpersonal violence. Always-on cameras are the opposite idea: enforcement moves outside the individual, which is basically how honor cultures stop being a thing.