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> Actively identifying the most able teachers and encouraging the least effective teachers to find other employment, regardless of seniority, could do much to i

by wisty 14y ago

> Actively identifying the most able teachers and encouraging the least effective teachers to find other employment, regardless of seniority, could do much to improve the efficiency of the public school system and free up resources to reward the best teachers better than they are rewarded now. How do you think should they do this? If you use test scores, teachers will try to "teach the test", or even encourage students to cheat. Student surveys might work, unless the students just dislike certain teachers (who are effective, but strict). Performance reviews can be rubbish. I'd bet properly designed teacher assessments (tests, student surveys) could find the worst 10% of teachers, though.

danielweber 14y ago
You cannot manage professionals by a set of numbers. (Sales might be the single exception.) Dilbert is full of tales of developers being graded on lines of code or number of bugs. You need to have human judgment involved. The problem is that the teachers' union does not trust the administrators (probably with good historical reason, but that's neither here nor there) to make those decisions using human judgment. They will only submit to clear rules, and, as with any organization, the rules will tend to benefit the members of the org that are in charge of bargaining.
- wisty 14y ago
  That's why I think it might work for finding the bottom 10%. Those are the ones you want to fire. If a teacher is in the bottom 30% (and in danger of getting in to the bottom 10%), you probably want them behaving like robots (teaching the test, following set procedures). If they are competent (most teachers are) you want them to manage themselves, as heavy incentives will just screw up their behavior.
  - intended 14y ago
    Your search for the bottom ten percent will put in place mechanisms that will affect the behavior of the remaining 90. You underestimate the ability of people to use such systems to end up enforcing a stifling uniform and grey mediocrity. Turn it on its head - if you switched the voting on HN to find the worst commentors, instead of bringing the best up top - what would happen.
    - cmccabe 14y ago
      "If you switched the voting on HN to find the worst commentors, instead of bringing the best up top - what would happen?" It would become Reddit?
- brazzy 14y ago
  > Sales might be the single exception. Except it's not: http://blog.fogcreek.com/why-do-we-pay-sales-commissions/ http://blog.fogcreek.com/why-do-we-pay-sales-commissions/
MaysonL 14y ago
Of course, there's also the alternative of teaching the teachers how to teach. Teaching is an ability that can be taught, and learned.[0] [0] "Building a Better Teacher" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html?ref=magazine&pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html...

by wisty 14y ago

danielweber 14y ago

You cannot manage professionals by a set of numbers. (Sales might be the single exception.) Dilbert is full of tales of developers being graded on lines of code or number of bugs. You need to have human judgment involved. The problem is that the teachers' union does not trust the administrators (probably with good historical reason, but that's neither here nor there) to make those decisions using human judgment. They will only submit to clear rules, and, as with any organization, the rules will tend to benefit the members of the org that are in charge of bargaining.

wisty 14y ago
That's why I think it might work for finding the bottom 10%. Those are the ones you want to fire. If a teacher is in the bottom 30% (and in danger of getting in to the bottom 10%), you probably want them behaving like robots (teaching the test, following set procedures). If they are competent (most teachers are) you want them to manage themselves, as heavy incentives will just screw up their behavior.
- intended 14y ago
  Your search for the bottom ten percent will put in place mechanisms that will affect the behavior of the remaining 90. You underestimate the ability of people to use such systems to end up enforcing a stifling uniform and grey mediocrity. Turn it on its head - if you switched the voting on HN to find the worst commentors, instead of bringing the best up top - what would happen.
  - cmccabe 14y ago
    "If you switched the voting on HN to find the worst commentors, instead of bringing the best up top - what would happen?" It would become Reddit?
brazzy 14y ago
> Sales might be the single exception. Except it's not: http://blog.fogcreek.com/why-do-we-pay-sales-commissions/ http://blog.fogcreek.com/why-do-we-pay-sales-commissions/

MaysonL 14y ago

Of course, there's also the alternative of teaching the teachers how to teach. Teaching is an ability that can be taught, and learned.[0] [0] "Building a Better Teacher" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html?ref=magazine&pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html...