5 ms·

"partly because of low pay" Teachers are actually some of the highest paid people in society. When you don't include benefits teachers make about $40/hr while

by curt 14y ago

"partly because of low pay" Teachers are actually some of the highest paid people in society. When you don't include benefits teachers make about $40/hr while engineers make $42/hr. If you do include benefits, a teachers compensation far exceeds that of an engineer due to their pensions. Source, BLS via Forbes.

sirmarksalot 14y ago
I looked that up on the BLS website, and while you're not using the same units as them, your numbers don't seem to match up. According to BLS, the median pay is $53,230 per year, which would be closer to $26.50 an hour, assuming a 40-hour work week. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-s... Maybe the Forbes article you're referring to about is only counting classroom hours, which is a pretty absurd notion. Teaching is a full-time job, and any figure based on an assumption to the contrary is going to be flawed. Not meaning to straw-man you, it's just that without a link to the article in question, I can only speculate where your figures come from.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  The correct figure is 38.5 hours/week for 9 months/year. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf That's about $33.5/hour for wages alone. It also ignores the value of gold plated health care + pensions, etc.
  - Bud 14y ago
    "Gold plated" (sic) health care? Tuck in your pants. Your bias is peeking out. (Edit after being downvoted, in an attempt to be more constructive): Seriously, you seem to have an animus against teachers having decent health care. What's your problem with that, and why do you feel it's appropriate to label their quite average health care plans as "gold plated", as if they were unfairly receiving more health care than they are entitled to?
    - hindsightbias 14y ago
      It's always easier to hate people in your own class who have fought for rights than to fight for those rights yourself. Sorry, I have to get back to believing whatever the 1% wants me to believe.
  - acdha 14y ago
    38.5 hours is … unrealistic. It also ignores the fact that health care and benefits have been slashed heavily in recent decades so while there may be some older teachers enjoying the fruits of stronger unions, a prospective new teacher is looking at something roughly equivalent to what any software engineer would receive as far as benefits go. Salary is probably lower unless you're comparing a teacher in a very rich / urban area with a software engineer well outside of SF/NY/LA/etc.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    According to the NEA, that's only scheduled hours, not actual work hours. http://www.nea.org/home/12661.htm http://www.nea.org/home/12661.htm That certainly matches the teachers I've known; they put in a ton of non-classroom hours, and often put in a fair bit of their own money. A Gates Foundation survey puts it at 53 hours per week: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/survey-teachers-work-53-hours-per-week-on-average/2012/03/16/gIQAqGxYGS_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/survey... And for teachers involved in extracurricular activities, the average is over 11 hours a day.
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      The numbers I cited are actual hours worked "last week" according to the BLS's American Time User Survey. It includes work performed "at a work location", "at home" and "at another location" (I assume this last one means starbucks). You'd have known all this if you bothered to read even the introduction.
      - wpietri 14y ago
        Did read it. I didn't see them resolve the scheduled hours versus hours worked question. And since the Gates Foundation numbers better match what every teacher I've ever talked to says, I'm going to run with them.
        yummyfajitas 14y ago
        Paragraph 2 explains that it tracks "activities that they engaged in".
        wpietri 14y ago
        Yep. Not convinced that they are really tracking what I'd like them to track.
- curt 14y ago
  Teachers work 9-months out of the year. Here's the site: http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/2011/12/22/the-teacher-salary-myth-are-teachers-underpaid/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/2011/12/22/the-teach...
  - vacri 14y ago
    This is a myth perpetrated by people who believe that since the kids are on holiday, so are the teachers.
  - sirmarksalot 14y ago
    That's a detail that's sort of glossed over in the article. I'd like to see some evidence for that. While I wouldn't be surprised if teachers work significantly less during the summer, I'd be very surprised to find out that they don't work at all. It rings of the assumption that classroom time is the only work time. Even if they don't work all 12 months of the year, is it feasible for a teacher to take another similar-paying job during the off months? If not, then hourly pay is not a good indicator of income. I can't imagine a person who is only going to be available for 2-3 months, and who has split responsibilities with classroom preparation, would be able to get a non-menial job to fill in the gaps, somewhere along the lines of $15/hour. So taking $15/hr * 40 hours (optimistic) gives $600 per week, multiplied by 13 weeks gives $7800 for the summer. Add that to the $52000 estimate from BLS, and you get $59,800 per year, which averages about $28 per hour on average.
tibbon 14y ago
Its a pretty wide spread depending what state. North Carolina teachers start around $37k, averaging out later to $46k. Some counties are higher, some lower. The pension plans are problematic, because many of them are under funded. For an older teacher about to retire this might not be an issue, but if you're 30 this seems like a much less certain deal. Teachers are rarely compensated on an hourly basis, and when they are it probably doesn't count half of their hours. Would your attorney charge you (in 5 minute increments) for a call at 7pm? You bet they would! But a call with a parent at 7pm nets a teacher nothing. Nor does preparation in the evening. Many teachers have exceedingly low classroom budgets as well, and are often forced to purchase supplies out of pocket. The High School theatre teacher who is working on a play with students until 11pm every night for weeks and weekends isn't compensated on an hourly basis; or given overtime. Its just part of the gig. And that sucks. I wouldn't mind being a teacher some day, as I love teaching; but unless I hit the startup lottery there's no way i can accept that level of compensation given my background, experience and skills. And even then, in a state like North Carolina that is more about rules than education, I can't see myself being able to last 3 days in that environment.
acdha 14y ago
As someone married to a teacher in one of the highest paying districts in the country (DC), this is completely unlike our experience: less salary, longer hours, far worse working conditions - schools tend to be run like factories a generation or two ago, with rigid top-down management, not information-age businesses, and don't forget significant hassles like inflexible hours and vacation schedules. This is for someone with a subject-area Ph.D and an education masters compared with any normal software engineering gig requiring only a BS. Since the source is Forbes I would strongly recommend scrutinizing the original data to see how they cherry-picked it. A disturbingly common deception tactic is to only count actual teaching time, which is akin to reporting a software developer's hours by focusing on time typing new code and ignoring testing, documentation, meetings, research, HN, etc. Similarly, you frequently hear "3 months vacation" bandied about when it's typically closer to 2 months and ignores weeks of district/school professional development, pre/post-year planning & prep, mandatory continuing education, etc. We typically have only one or two options for a two-week vacation during the entire summer break.
timjahn 14y ago
I assume you're counting the hours spent in evenings and on weekends too?
darrenkopp 14y ago
At 19 I was making more than my high school business teacher on an entry level salary. Seems to me that is a pretty sad state of affairs.

by curt 14y ago

sirmarksalot 14y ago

I looked that up on the BLS website, and while you're not using the same units as them, your numbers don't seem to match up. According to BLS, the median pay is $53,230 per year, which would be closer to $26.50 an hour, assuming a 40-hour work week. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-s... Maybe the Forbes article you're referring to about is only counting classroom hours, which is a pretty absurd notion. Teaching is a full-time job, and any figure based on an assumption to the contrary is going to be flawed. Not meaning to straw-man you, it's just that without a link to the article in question, I can only speculate where your figures come from.

yummyfajitas 14y ago
The correct figure is 38.5 hours/week for 9 months/year. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf That's about $33.5/hour for wages alone. It also ignores the value of gold plated health care + pensions, etc.
- Bud 14y ago
  "Gold plated" (sic) health care? Tuck in your pants. Your bias is peeking out. (Edit after being downvoted, in an attempt to be more constructive): Seriously, you seem to have an animus against teachers having decent health care. What's your problem with that, and why do you feel it's appropriate to label their quite average health care plans as "gold plated", as if they were unfairly receiving more health care than they are entitled to?
  - hindsightbias 14y ago
    It's always easier to hate people in your own class who have fought for rights than to fight for those rights yourself. Sorry, I have to get back to believing whatever the 1% wants me to believe.
- acdha 14y ago
  38.5 hours is … unrealistic. It also ignores the fact that health care and benefits have been slashed heavily in recent decades so while there may be some older teachers enjoying the fruits of stronger unions, a prospective new teacher is looking at something roughly equivalent to what any software engineer would receive as far as benefits go. Salary is probably lower unless you're comparing a teacher in a very rich / urban area with a software engineer well outside of SF/NY/LA/etc.
- wpietri 14y ago
  According to the NEA, that's only scheduled hours, not actual work hours. http://www.nea.org/home/12661.htm http://www.nea.org/home/12661.htm That certainly matches the teachers I've known; they put in a ton of non-classroom hours, and often put in a fair bit of their own money. A Gates Foundation survey puts it at 53 hours per week: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/survey-teachers-work-53-hours-per-week-on-average/2012/03/16/gIQAqGxYGS_blog.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/survey... And for teachers involved in extracurricular activities, the average is over 11 hours a day.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    The numbers I cited are actual hours worked "last week" according to the BLS's American Time User Survey. It includes work performed "at a work location", "at home" and "at another location" (I assume this last one means starbucks). You'd have known all this if you bothered to read even the introduction.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      Did read it. I didn't see them resolve the scheduled hours versus hours worked question. And since the Gates Foundation numbers better match what every teacher I've ever talked to says, I'm going to run with them.
      - yummyfajitas 14y ago
        Paragraph 2 explains that it tracks "activities that they engaged in".
        wpietri 14y ago
        Yep. Not convinced that they are really tracking what I'd like them to track.
curt 14y ago
Teachers work 9-months out of the year. Here's the site: http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/2011/12/22/the-teacher-salary-myth-are-teachers-underpaid/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/2011/12/22/the-teach...
- vacri 14y ago
  This is a myth perpetrated by people who believe that since the kids are on holiday, so are the teachers.
- sirmarksalot 14y ago
  That's a detail that's sort of glossed over in the article. I'd like to see some evidence for that. While I wouldn't be surprised if teachers work significantly less during the summer, I'd be very surprised to find out that they don't work at all. It rings of the assumption that classroom time is the only work time. Even if they don't work all 12 months of the year, is it feasible for a teacher to take another similar-paying job during the off months? If not, then hourly pay is not a good indicator of income. I can't imagine a person who is only going to be available for 2-3 months, and who has split responsibilities with classroom preparation, would be able to get a non-menial job to fill in the gaps, somewhere along the lines of $15/hour. So taking $15/hr * 40 hours (optimistic) gives $600 per week, multiplied by 13 weeks gives $7800 for the summer. Add that to the $52000 estimate from BLS, and you get $59,800 per year, which averages about $28 per hour on average.

tibbon 14y ago

Its a pretty wide spread depending what state. North Carolina teachers start around $37k, averaging out later to $46k. Some counties are higher, some lower. The pension plans are problematic, because many of them are under funded. For an older teacher about to retire this might not be an issue, but if you're 30 this seems like a much less certain deal. Teachers are rarely compensated on an hourly basis, and when they are it probably doesn't count half of their hours. Would your attorney charge you (in 5 minute increments) for a call at 7pm? You bet they would! But a call with a parent at 7pm nets a teacher nothing. Nor does preparation in the evening. Many teachers have exceedingly low classroom budgets as well, and are often forced to purchase supplies out of pocket. The High School theatre teacher who is working on a play with students until 11pm every night for weeks and weekends isn't compensated on an hourly basis; or given overtime. Its just part of the gig. And that sucks. I wouldn't mind being a teacher some day, as I love teaching; but unless I hit the startup lottery there's no way i can accept that level of compensation given my background, experience and skills. And even then, in a state like North Carolina that is more about rules than education, I can't see myself being able to last 3 days in that environment.

acdha 14y ago

As someone married to a teacher in one of the highest paying districts in the country (DC), this is completely unlike our experience: less salary, longer hours, far worse working conditions - schools tend to be run like factories a generation or two ago, with rigid top-down management, not information-age businesses, and don't forget significant hassles like inflexible hours and vacation schedules. This is for someone with a subject-area Ph.D and an education masters compared with any normal software engineering gig requiring only a BS. Since the source is Forbes I would strongly recommend scrutinizing the original data to see how they cherry-picked it. A disturbingly common deception tactic is to only count actual teaching time, which is akin to reporting a software developer's hours by focusing on time typing new code and ignoring testing, documentation, meetings, research, HN, etc. Similarly, you frequently hear "3 months vacation" bandied about when it's typically closer to 2 months and ignores weeks of district/school professional development, pre/post-year planning & prep, mandatory continuing education, etc. We typically have only one or two options for a two-week vacation during the entire summer break.

timjahn 14y ago

I assume you're counting the hours spent in evenings and on weekends too?

darrenkopp 14y ago

At 19 I was making more than my high school business teacher on an entry level salary. Seems to me that is a pretty sad state of affairs.