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Software developer performance in the US has been terrible for many years as well. Maybe we should institute some standardized tests? And if you're gonna comp

by jbooth 14y ago

Software developer performance in the US has been terrible for many years as well. Maybe we should institute some standardized tests? And if you're gonna complain about how measuring KLOC doesn't make any sense, well, it's not enough to just point out problems. You've gotta point out solutions. Be a team player.

justin_vanw 14y ago
You're right, it's exactly the same in every way. No strawman here!
- Tsagadai 14y ago
  It's not the same and that wasn't the poster's point and it isn't a strawman. Metrics are hard. Metrics for complex, creative endeavours are exceptionally hard. Both programmers and teachers are difficult to accurately evaluate and manage. Most developers I know object to arbitrary metrics for the same reasons as most teachers I know do, the metrics rarely measure actual performance and metrics are usually gamed. Perhaps you would like to contribute something to the discussion instead of pointless sarcasm.
yummyfajitas 14y ago
Software developer performance in the US has been terrible for many years as well. The cost of software has been going up while the output has not been improving? Um, what? Maybe we should institute some standardized tests? Big companies already do this. They typically have very rigid processes for evaluating consultants/outsourcers and pretty much just follow the numbers. For higher end work it's trickier, but for standard stuff (build X screens in Y CRUD app) it works well. The only real difficulty in measuring the output of individual developers is heterogeneity. Last year I built a search engine, this year I'm building a realtime data framework (and other stuff). That's not a problem for teaching, since the output of teaching is homogeneous (and is defined by the syllabus).
- drivingmenuts 14y ago
  > That's not a problem for teaching, since the output of teaching is homogeneous (and is defined by the syllabus). The syllabus is typically defined politically, which is anything but homegeneous. In fact, pretty much everything surrounding the teacher is defined by politics, which makes it a huge problem. Until we're mature enough to get rid of the politics surrounding the teaching of even core subjects, like science, we're screwed. And I don't blame the teachers one bit for walking away.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    The syllabus is typically defined politically, which is anything but homegeneous. Please look up the definition of homogeneous - being defined politically has nothing to do with it. All calc 1 classes are the same, and some politician demanding that pi=3 doesn't change this.
    - drivingmenuts 14y ago
      Fortunately, math hasn't been caught up in the same horse manure that science, history and language instruction have been, all of which have ongoing political surroundings. Additionally, the modern teacher has to deal with and put up with rather a lot of things that aren't directly related to their subject areas, but are politically determined. FYI, denotatively, homogenous and homegeneous have different meanings. Connotatively, they are somewhat interchangeable. I suggest you look up the meaning of "thesaurus" and "pedantic". Or skip that and ask yourself, did you understand what I meant?
      - yummyfajitas 14y ago
        I didn't notice you used a different word (and one that isn't in the dictionary, no less). At this point I concede that I have no idea what you meant. I do agree with you that people who dislike politics should not work for the government (which is, by it's very nature, political).

by jbooth 14y ago

justin_vanw 14y ago

You're right, it's exactly the same in every way. No strawman here!

Tsagadai 14y ago
It's not the same and that wasn't the poster's point and it isn't a strawman. Metrics are hard. Metrics for complex, creative endeavours are exceptionally hard. Both programmers and teachers are difficult to accurately evaluate and manage. Most developers I know object to arbitrary metrics for the same reasons as most teachers I know do, the metrics rarely measure actual performance and metrics are usually gamed. Perhaps you would like to contribute something to the discussion instead of pointless sarcasm.

yummyfajitas 14y ago

Software developer performance in the US has been terrible for many years as well. The cost of software has been going up while the output has not been improving? Um, what? Maybe we should institute some standardized tests? Big companies already do this. They typically have very rigid processes for evaluating consultants/outsourcers and pretty much just follow the numbers. For higher end work it's trickier, but for standard stuff (build X screens in Y CRUD app) it works well. The only real difficulty in measuring the output of individual developers is heterogeneity. Last year I built a search engine, this year I'm building a realtime data framework (and other stuff). That's not a problem for teaching, since the output of teaching is homogeneous (and is defined by the syllabus).

drivingmenuts 14y ago
> That's not a problem for teaching, since the output of teaching is homogeneous (and is defined by the syllabus). The syllabus is typically defined politically, which is anything but homegeneous. In fact, pretty much everything surrounding the teacher is defined by politics, which makes it a huge problem. Until we're mature enough to get rid of the politics surrounding the teaching of even core subjects, like science, we're screwed. And I don't blame the teachers one bit for walking away.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  The syllabus is typically defined politically, which is anything but homegeneous. Please look up the definition of homogeneous - being defined politically has nothing to do with it. All calc 1 classes are the same, and some politician demanding that pi=3 doesn't change this.
  - drivingmenuts 14y ago
    Fortunately, math hasn't been caught up in the same horse manure that science, history and language instruction have been, all of which have ongoing political surroundings. Additionally, the modern teacher has to deal with and put up with rather a lot of things that aren't directly related to their subject areas, but are politically determined. FYI, denotatively, homogenous and homegeneous have different meanings. Connotatively, they are somewhat interchangeable. I suggest you look up the meaning of "thesaurus" and "pedantic". Or skip that and ask yourself, did you understand what I meant?
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      I didn't notice you used a different word (and one that isn't in the dictionary, no less). At this point I concede that I have no idea what you meant. I do agree with you that people who dislike politics should not work for the government (which is, by it's very nature, political).