4 ms·

This is anathema to me, as an American. I would never want to have pressure to tell my employer anything about my home life, for fear of losing my job. As for l

This is anathema to me, as an American. I would never want to have pressure to tell my employer anything about my home life, for fear of losing my job. As for laws about salaries, that also sounds terrible. I am glad that this is extremely uncommon where I live, except for government workers.

em-bee 8mo ago
actually, in the US policies about keeping your pay secret are illegal. and in many states salaries need to be published on job postings too. so it's not hard to figure out what someone earns, and it is in your benefit to not keep it secret unless you are a very high earner. you also do not have any job protection, so you don't benefit from sharing this. but the number of kids is hardly a secret worth keeping. and when your employer offers childcare benefits you would also share that information. you would not forgo the benefits just to keep that private. and that's the same in europe if you don't tell your employer then you can't benefit from the additional job protection. your choice.
- apparent 8mo ago
  No one said anything about policies forcing people to keep their pay secret. We love our freedom of speech, so that wouldn't make much sense. It is true that a small minority of states (under a quarter) have some requirement about salary range on job postings, but that doesn't tell you what people make. That tells you what the base salary range is, and the range can be quite large. It also doesn't tell you what anyone who wasn't just hired makes, since their salary could have increased in the time since they were hired in the applicable range. And of course, the many people who worked at a company since before these recent laws went into effect have no hint of their salary published anywhere. I guess some people don't find it creepy to have employers make termination decisions based on family structure, but I sure as hell do. I would think that European countries, where they like privacy so much that they invented cookie banners, wouldn't put employees in the awkward situation of having to disclose their family structure, spousal earnings, costs (medical bills? caring for a parent?) in order to hang onto their jobs. And this is before getting into the efficiency arguments of retaining employees based on productivity, not family structure. I can see why startups aren't flourishing as much in Europe, with policies like these!
  - bigyabai 8mo ago
    > We love our freedom of speech We love the idea of it. Want to boycott, divest or sanction a specific state? That's illegal because you're using speech for the wrong purposes. As an American, I think you're huffing farts to win an unwinnable debate.
    - apparent 8mo ago
      I guess it's easier to lob silly fart claims rather than engage with the fact that what you've described is very foreign to most Americans. As for sanctioning specific states, we do this plenty. There aren't many voices raised when it's done against countries that are our enemies. Sanctioning allies would obviously be a weird move, and countries in between, are in between. I'll end by saying that you characterize this as a debate, when it isn't one. You're free to think it's grand to terminate employees based on their home life. I think it's terrible and am glad I don't work at a company that would ever do such a thing. But I don't think it's something that should be illegal, as long as everyone who went to work for the company knew what they were getting into.
  - em-bee 8mo ago
    No one said anything about policies forcing people to keep their pay secret. We love our freedom of speech, so that wouldn't make much sense. really? it has been a widespread policy in many companies across the US until the laws changed. some people don't find it creepy to have employers make termination decisions based on family structure, but I sure as hell do. why though? what's the big deal with someone knowing how many children you have? European countries, where they like privacy [...] wouldn't put employees in the awkward situation of having to disclose their family structure, spousal earnings, costs (medical bills? caring for a parent?) in order to hang onto their jobs. there are a few things you need to consider: for one earnings are much more average. there are not many high or low earners. if i know what your job is i can pretty much guess how much you make because most people in the same job get the same pay, and that is already public knowledge. unlike the US (you do have a point with the base salaries and the range there) the pay ranges in europe are much narrower. likewise costs are irrelevant because almost everyone has health insurance which covers anything worth of note. medical bills are not a thing for the average person in europe. i said it before: there is nothing to disclose that isn't already public. I can see why startups aren't flourishing as much in Europe, with policies like these! also not relevant because these laws don't apply to small companies. the minimum is 50 people i think.

em-bee 8mo ago

actually, in the US policies about keeping your pay secret are illegal. and in many states salaries need to be published on job postings too. so it's not hard to figure out what someone earns, and it is in your benefit to not keep it secret unless you are a very high earner. you also do not have any job protection, so you don't benefit from sharing this. but the number of kids is hardly a secret worth keeping. and when your employer offers childcare benefits you would also share that information. you would not forgo the benefits just to keep that private. and that's the same in europe if you don't tell your employer then you can't benefit from the additional job protection. your choice.

apparent 8mo ago
No one said anything about policies forcing people to keep their pay secret. We love our freedom of speech, so that wouldn't make much sense. It is true that a small minority of states (under a quarter) have some requirement about salary range on job postings, but that doesn't tell you what people make. That tells you what the base salary range is, and the range can be quite large. It also doesn't tell you what anyone who wasn't just hired makes, since their salary could have increased in the time since they were hired in the applicable range. And of course, the many people who worked at a company since before these recent laws went into effect have no hint of their salary published anywhere. I guess some people don't find it creepy to have employers make termination decisions based on family structure, but I sure as hell do. I would think that European countries, where they like privacy so much that they invented cookie banners, wouldn't put employees in the awkward situation of having to disclose their family structure, spousal earnings, costs (medical bills? caring for a parent?) in order to hang onto their jobs. And this is before getting into the efficiency arguments of retaining employees based on productivity, not family structure. I can see why startups aren't flourishing as much in Europe, with policies like these!
- bigyabai 8mo ago
  > We love our freedom of speech We love the idea of it. Want to boycott, divest or sanction a specific state? That's illegal because you're using speech for the wrong purposes. As an American, I think you're huffing farts to win an unwinnable debate.
  - apparent 8mo ago
    I guess it's easier to lob silly fart claims rather than engage with the fact that what you've described is very foreign to most Americans. As for sanctioning specific states, we do this plenty. There aren't many voices raised when it's done against countries that are our enemies. Sanctioning allies would obviously be a weird move, and countries in between, are in between. I'll end by saying that you characterize this as a debate, when it isn't one. You're free to think it's grand to terminate employees based on their home life. I think it's terrible and am glad I don't work at a company that would ever do such a thing. But I don't think it's something that should be illegal, as long as everyone who went to work for the company knew what they were getting into.
- em-bee 8mo ago
  No one said anything about policies forcing people to keep their pay secret. We love our freedom of speech, so that wouldn't make much sense. really? it has been a widespread policy in many companies across the US until the laws changed. some people don't find it creepy to have employers make termination decisions based on family structure, but I sure as hell do. why though? what's the big deal with someone knowing how many children you have? European countries, where they like privacy [...] wouldn't put employees in the awkward situation of having to disclose their family structure, spousal earnings, costs (medical bills? caring for a parent?) in order to hang onto their jobs. there are a few things you need to consider: for one earnings are much more average. there are not many high or low earners. if i know what your job is i can pretty much guess how much you make because most people in the same job get the same pay, and that is already public knowledge. unlike the US (you do have a point with the base salaries and the range there) the pay ranges in europe are much narrower. likewise costs are irrelevant because almost everyone has health insurance which covers anything worth of note. medical bills are not a thing for the average person in europe. i said it before: there is nothing to disclose that isn't already public. I can see why startups aren't flourishing as much in Europe, with policies like these! also not relevant because these laws don't apply to small companies. the minimum is 50 people i think.