7 ms·

I mean, I can meet you in an ally, transfer some satoshis from my wallet to yours, you hand me a wad of cash/jewels/MtG/collector funkos and you might not even

I mean, I can meet you in an ally, transfer some satoshis from my wallet to yours, you hand me a wad of cash/jewels/MtG/collector funkos and you might not even know my name.

davidwritesbugs 8mo ago
But do people actually do this? How would you find someone to give you bitcoin for your gold? Are there online markets? Honest Q
- KomoD 8mo ago
  Yeah, people do. Bisq is one place, there's more.
  - inigyou 8mo ago
    It used to be LocalBitcoins, but it shut down
beAbU 8mo ago
True, but this does not happen for large transactions, due to being vulnerable to the $5 wrench attack (1) For big transactions where something of actual value is exchanged, both parties will want an escrow, and this is where a public exchange comes in. 1 - https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- himata4113 8mo ago
  Except that there is a huge trusted network for this. The world does not revolve around americas and europe. Not everyone has issues cashing out millions of crypto from a bank. This has been especially prevelant with countries that host a lot of Russian immigrants ever since the SWIFT ban, the regulation is extremely lax and there is minimal data shared to western institutions. I have heard from friends who are in these countries observing transactions that go into the millions of dollars that are being cashed out (not even laundered) like it's just another day. Nobody asks questions, nobody cares either and if you bring it up you will likely lose your job in few months or so.
  - beAbU 8mo ago
    The moment that crypto is cashed out at a bank, no matter how sketchy, a record is created in a ledger. This completely destroys the so-called anonymity of cryptocurrencies.
    - himata4113 8mo ago
      this was about the $5 wrench not about the tracing of it and sure you can know the origin but you don't know the final destination.
    - VirusNewbie 8mo ago
      No it doesn't. If I go to an escrow company, transfer my ten million in bitcoin to their wallet and they put money into the bank, the only paper trail is the escrow company. Escrow companies open and close all the time for this very reason. People wash money alllll day long with US real estate for this reason.
      - Shocka1 8mo ago
        Curious though, if escrow company gets subpoenaed and is a legit business, would they not be inclined to reveal the customer they interacted with?
        himata4113 8mo ago
        not every country has a concept of "subpoenaed" especially if it comes from the US veil.
        Shocka1 8mo ago
        That's fair - I suppose I should have mentioned just the US in my original comment.
        VirusNewbie 8mo ago
        Because they open and close all the time. I've dealt with escrow companies where the owners had opened and closed multiple other escrow companies in a ten year span.
- KellyCriterion 8mo ago
  Well, this escrow could also be some lawyer or notary, Id guess?
nine_k 8mo ago
Hmm, doesn't this work equally well with a wad of $10 and $20 notes? I mean, yes, notes could be clandestinely marked. But aren't bitcoins also traceable after the first transaction?
- VirusNewbie 8mo ago
  yes but harder to move 10M in cash around from country to country. I'm assuming I'm purchasing/selling a lot of MtG/Funko here in this example.
  - Retric 8mo ago
    There’s a large industry for cleaning cash which then makes moving a clean 10M or even 10B in clean cash nearly trivial. 10M might not be as noticeable but crypto being nominally in a country on its own isn’t that useful as you still want to be able to spend it at the end of the day.
mikkupikku 8mo ago
Sounds like a setup to get robbed tbqh.
- dpc050505 8mo ago
  My days of contraband in college taught me that the perspective of repeat business kept things quite amicable.
wolvoleo 8mo ago
How do you avoid them just putting a bullet in you and just taking your cash without the Bitcoin though? It doesn't seem like a great option.
- DeusExMachina 8mo ago
  The same way you avoid it doing anything else illegal that involves cash. Crime is risky, but not pure anarchy. It is still based on trust and rules, just not those written in the law. There are plenty of regular people who interact with criminals, for example drug dealers, without getting murdered or robbed of all the cash they are carrying. In Argentina, years ago, you could exchange dollars/euros for pesos on the street and get a far better exchange rate than in a bank. It was obviously aimed at tourists, who didn't get robbed, or the whole enterprise would stop.

I mean, I can meet you in an ally, transfer some satoshis from my wallet to yours, you hand me a wad of cash/jewels/MtG/collector funkos and you might not even know my name.

davidwritesbugs 8mo ago

But do people actually do this? How would you find someone to give you bitcoin for your gold? Are there online markets? Honest Q

KomoD 8mo ago
Yeah, people do. Bisq is one place, there's more.
- inigyou 8mo ago
  It used to be LocalBitcoins, but it shut down

beAbU 8mo ago

True, but this does not happen for large transactions, due to being vulnerable to the $5 wrench attack (1) For big transactions where something of actual value is exchanged, both parties will want an escrow, and this is where a public exchange comes in. 1 - https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/

himata4113 8mo ago
Except that there is a huge trusted network for this. The world does not revolve around americas and europe. Not everyone has issues cashing out millions of crypto from a bank. This has been especially prevelant with countries that host a lot of Russian immigrants ever since the SWIFT ban, the regulation is extremely lax and there is minimal data shared to western institutions. I have heard from friends who are in these countries observing transactions that go into the millions of dollars that are being cashed out (not even laundered) like it's just another day. Nobody asks questions, nobody cares either and if you bring it up you will likely lose your job in few months or so.
- beAbU 8mo ago
  The moment that crypto is cashed out at a bank, no matter how sketchy, a record is created in a ledger. This completely destroys the so-called anonymity of cryptocurrencies.
  - himata4113 8mo ago
    this was about the $5 wrench not about the tracing of it and sure you can know the origin but you don't know the final destination.
  - VirusNewbie 8mo ago
    No it doesn't. If I go to an escrow company, transfer my ten million in bitcoin to their wallet and they put money into the bank, the only paper trail is the escrow company. Escrow companies open and close all the time for this very reason. People wash money alllll day long with US real estate for this reason.
    - Shocka1 8mo ago
      Curious though, if escrow company gets subpoenaed and is a legit business, would they not be inclined to reveal the customer they interacted with?
      - himata4113 8mo ago
        not every country has a concept of "subpoenaed" especially if it comes from the US veil.
        Shocka1 8mo ago
        That's fair - I suppose I should have mentioned just the US in my original comment.
      - VirusNewbie 8mo ago
        Because they open and close all the time. I've dealt with escrow companies where the owners had opened and closed multiple other escrow companies in a ten year span.
KellyCriterion 8mo ago
Well, this escrow could also be some lawyer or notary, Id guess?

nine_k 8mo ago

Hmm, doesn't this work equally well with a wad of $10 and $20 notes? I mean, yes, notes could be clandestinely marked. But aren't bitcoins also traceable after the first transaction?

VirusNewbie 8mo ago
yes but harder to move 10M in cash around from country to country. I'm assuming I'm purchasing/selling a lot of MtG/Funko here in this example.
- Retric 8mo ago
  There’s a large industry for cleaning cash which then makes moving a clean 10M or even 10B in clean cash nearly trivial. 10M might not be as noticeable but crypto being nominally in a country on its own isn’t that useful as you still want to be able to spend it at the end of the day.

mikkupikku 8mo ago

Sounds like a setup to get robbed tbqh.

dpc050505 8mo ago
My days of contraband in college taught me that the perspective of repeat business kept things quite amicable.

wolvoleo 8mo ago

How do you avoid them just putting a bullet in you and just taking your cash without the Bitcoin though? It doesn't seem like a great option.

DeusExMachina 8mo ago
The same way you avoid it doing anything else illegal that involves cash. Crime is risky, but not pure anarchy. It is still based on trust and rules, just not those written in the law. There are plenty of regular people who interact with criminals, for example drug dealers, without getting murdered or robbed of all the cash they are carrying. In Argentina, years ago, you could exchange dollars/euros for pesos on the street and get a far better exchange rate than in a bank. It was obviously aimed at tourists, who didn't get robbed, or the whole enterprise would stop.