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The title (and article) is really bad journalism. I'm an Ubuntu Developer at the summit and listened to this talk live about an hour ago and he said nothing of

by YokoZar 14y ago

The title (and article) is really bad journalism. I'm an Ubuntu Developer at the summit and listened to this talk live about an hour ago and he said nothing of the sort. He did say that Microsoft and Apple are moving away from the open platform model and that Valve has always been in favor of open platforms. Linux is the best option for a continuing open platform in the future. Actual video of the talk will be online within a day or so, so I suggest you watch that instead of reading contrite stories like this one. Here is a much better article about the talk from OMG Ubuntu: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/10/valve-talk-steam-for-linux-at-uds http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/10/valve-talk-steam-for-linu...

astrodust 14y ago
In this case "open platform" means "platform where a publisher other than the operating system vendor can make a profit".
- gagege 14y ago
  Thank you, captain obvious.
- Shorel 14y ago
  Is there anything wrong with making a profit ?
  - astrodust 14y ago
    There's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying that "open" here doesn't mean "open" as other people use it as in "open source" or "open access".
- furyofantares 14y ago
  In my view the ability for anyone to hack on their own device is valuable, too. I learned to program because GORILLAS.BAS came with the source code (and I think required you to view it in order to run it!) I use closed devices with some mixed feelings about it, the thing I'm most sad to support is the move toward devices with bigger barriers toward tinkering than what I had as a kid. I'm probably more accepting of it when it's a device I never had as a kid, but when barriers are constructed for once-open platforms it starts to irk me.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    I've heard this argument before and it's a load of crap. If I had a choice between a C64 with BASIC and an iPad with a browser, I'd take the browser every time. Within twenty seconds you can have http://jsfiddle.net/ http://jsfiddle.net/ up in a window and be programming JavaScript. Within a few minutes you could create a Linode account and be using vi through ssh. Within a few days you could be creating a much more significant application using the enormous selection of open-source tools that never, ever existed on the same platforms that GORILLA.BAS came from. You could do things that were virtually impossible in the 1980s in a matter of days or weeks, even with no prior experience. People decry the App Store as "closed", but it's basically open to anyone with a hundred bucks and the ability to ship an executable to Apple. Sure, theoretically you could've shipped your game on your C64 on floppy disks, as some people successfully did, but the enormity of this undertaking is well beyond the ability of most beginner programmers. It was basically impossible to go it alone without a publisher for distribution. Now anyone can self-publish. If you ask me, the ecosystem has never been more open and accessible to developers of all ages and backgrounds. It's also more open, more friendly to users of all stripes, not just enthusiasts. Your grandmother can buy apps through the app store. This sort of thing simply didn't happen in the so-called glorious old days of "open" computers.
    - furyofantares 14y ago
      The barrier to entry for GORILLAS.BAS was "hey, what's this number do and what happens if I change it?" I didn't even have to know I wanted to learn to program. I agree with you that there are tons of awesome things at our fingertips for shipping applications to people, or for learning to code once you know that's what you want to do. jsfiddle looks great, if you know you want to learn JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. Linode is awesome, once you know you want to host a site. The App Store is incredible, once you can write an acceptable app. Those are all great things, and they are all a few steps beyond the stage I'm talking about. You're talking about learning to walk; I'm talking about learning to crawl.
- bonzoesc 14y ago
  Publishers can make profits on closed platforms; in fact, they're almost essential due to the work it takes getting to market on a closed platform. Middle-man distributors, however, don't typically profit from platforms. Valve's position on platforms that have built-in preferred digital distribution systems isn't surprising, they're using their position as OS vendor to boost their digital software distribution business.
rossjudson 14y ago
The "closed" part of the ecosystem is Windows RT, in the sense that apps for that platform must come from the Windows Store. Windows 8 runs Steam very well, and has no such restrictions. Steam's not available on the iPad either.
- noblethrasher 14y ago
  Those points were addressed in this article: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/ http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/
  - IvarTJ 14y ago
    Some TL;DR: The article speculates that the emergence of Windows Store app platform from the Windows desktop could become similar to the emergence of Windows from DOS, and that newer technologies will similarly only be available on the Windows Store app platform. It describes the locked-down properties of the Windows Store, and, extrapolating from the current certification requirements for Windows Store apps, it asserts that a game like Skyrim would be denied certification on Windows Store in 2032 because of its PEGI rating.
    - nanodeath 14y ago
      BTW, Microsoft did back down from that policy (not allowing games like Skyrim and its ilk): http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/10/microsoft-to-allow-mature-games-in-european-windows-8-store/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/10/microsoft-to-allow-mat...
- ralfn 14y ago
  You do realize both Microsoft as well as Apple are trying to separate the consumer market from the high end, professional market. The cheapest Apple device that allows side-loading costs 999 euro's. The cheapest win8 device that allows side loading will be at least 800 euro's. I understand why. The biggest problem of the convential desktop is the ugly compomize between freedom, power users and professionals on one end, and casual consumer usage at the other end. But that does mean, many of Valves current customers, that buy midrange devices, will end up on RT or iOS. And the crowd on this site, will likely find the devices aimed for them moving to a more expensive and exclusive niche.
110011001100 14y ago
How is windows app store different from Ubuntu app store Especially considering that anything not from an app store is much easier to install on Windows (double click on GUI installer) than on Ubuntu (mess around with dependencies, and compiling stuff). Everything on Ubuntu comes from the Ubuntu store, or the Aptitude store. Not an easy task to download something like an exe off the web and install it
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- slowpoke 14y ago
  With all due respect, you have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. First of all, every damn time someone brings up the "you just have to double click the installer on Windows" argument, they leave out the steps before that (most prominently, locate and download a safe copy of said installer). Second, I don't know what FUD you have been told about Linux on the desktop, but contrary to what you assert about it, no, installing applications on almost all widespread Linux distributions I can spontaneously think of - except Gentoo - requires neither compiling nor messing around with dependencies. Third, no, not everything on Ubuntu comes from the "Ubuntu store" or "Apitude store" - in fact, neither of those exists. If you are talking about the Ubuntu Software Center, that's basically just a fancy front-end for APT - as is Aptitude. If I remember correctly, the UCS also allows purchasing of some commercial software as of recently (I don't use Ubuntu). In addition, Ubuntu (and derived distributions) have a thing called Personal Package Archives, whose very concept is to make it possible to easily add your own package sources to complement the official repositories. The UCS can handle those, too. Also, there's a very important distinction between a package repository as used in many Linux distributions and a closed app store: the former is, at least to an extent, managed by the community and the users. You cannot say that of the latter.
  - peeters 14y ago
    And to add to that, installing a .deb or an .rpm (if that's the route the software is distributed, like with Chrome) is a one-click solution (the rough equivalent to an .msi). And if someone wants to give you simply a precompiled binary, they can do that too. Though in Linux you need to set the executable flag on it so you don't shoot yourself in the foot like you so easily can with malicious .exe files.
macspoofing 14y ago
>Valve has always been in favor of open platforms. Steam?
JadeNB 14y ago
> The title (and article) is really bad journalism. I don't know if the title has been changed since it was posted—I suspect not, since it matches the URL—but what it actually says is that Linux is more viable than Windows for gaming (which is probably more surprising; but, in any case, is certainly a different point).
shikhar123 14y ago
I would not completely buy this idea of Microsoft moving away from openness http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/directory.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/directory.aspx http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-is-serious-about-open-source-10-proof-points/12784 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-is-serious-abo...

by YokoZar 14y ago

astrodust 14y ago

In this case "open platform" means "platform where a publisher other than the operating system vendor can make a profit".

gagege 14y ago
Thank you, captain obvious.
Shorel 14y ago
Is there anything wrong with making a profit ?
- astrodust 14y ago
  There's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying that "open" here doesn't mean "open" as other people use it as in "open source" or "open access".
furyofantares 14y ago
In my view the ability for anyone to hack on their own device is valuable, too. I learned to program because GORILLAS.BAS came with the source code (and I think required you to view it in order to run it!) I use closed devices with some mixed feelings about it, the thing I'm most sad to support is the move toward devices with bigger barriers toward tinkering than what I had as a kid. I'm probably more accepting of it when it's a device I never had as a kid, but when barriers are constructed for once-open platforms it starts to irk me.
- astrodust 14y ago
  I've heard this argument before and it's a load of crap. If I had a choice between a C64 with BASIC and an iPad with a browser, I'd take the browser every time. Within twenty seconds you can have http://jsfiddle.net/ http://jsfiddle.net/ up in a window and be programming JavaScript. Within a few minutes you could create a Linode account and be using vi through ssh. Within a few days you could be creating a much more significant application using the enormous selection of open-source tools that never, ever existed on the same platforms that GORILLA.BAS came from. You could do things that were virtually impossible in the 1980s in a matter of days or weeks, even with no prior experience. People decry the App Store as "closed", but it's basically open to anyone with a hundred bucks and the ability to ship an executable to Apple. Sure, theoretically you could've shipped your game on your C64 on floppy disks, as some people successfully did, but the enormity of this undertaking is well beyond the ability of most beginner programmers. It was basically impossible to go it alone without a publisher for distribution. Now anyone can self-publish. If you ask me, the ecosystem has never been more open and accessible to developers of all ages and backgrounds. It's also more open, more friendly to users of all stripes, not just enthusiasts. Your grandmother can buy apps through the app store. This sort of thing simply didn't happen in the so-called glorious old days of "open" computers.
  - furyofantares 14y ago
    The barrier to entry for GORILLAS.BAS was "hey, what's this number do and what happens if I change it?" I didn't even have to know I wanted to learn to program. I agree with you that there are tons of awesome things at our fingertips for shipping applications to people, or for learning to code once you know that's what you want to do. jsfiddle looks great, if you know you want to learn JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. Linode is awesome, once you know you want to host a site. The App Store is incredible, once you can write an acceptable app. Those are all great things, and they are all a few steps beyond the stage I'm talking about. You're talking about learning to walk; I'm talking about learning to crawl.
bonzoesc 14y ago
Publishers can make profits on closed platforms; in fact, they're almost essential due to the work it takes getting to market on a closed platform. Middle-man distributors, however, don't typically profit from platforms. Valve's position on platforms that have built-in preferred digital distribution systems isn't surprising, they're using their position as OS vendor to boost their digital software distribution business.

rossjudson 14y ago

The "closed" part of the ecosystem is Windows RT, in the sense that apps for that platform must come from the Windows Store. Windows 8 runs Steam very well, and has no such restrictions. Steam's not available on the iPad either.

noblethrasher 14y ago
Those points were addressed in this article: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/ http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/
- IvarTJ 14y ago
  Some TL;DR: The article speculates that the emergence of Windows Store app platform from the Windows desktop could become similar to the emergence of Windows from DOS, and that newer technologies will similarly only be available on the Windows Store app platform. It describes the locked-down properties of the Windows Store, and, extrapolating from the current certification requirements for Windows Store apps, it asserts that a game like Skyrim would be denied certification on Windows Store in 2032 because of its PEGI rating.
  - nanodeath 14y ago
    BTW, Microsoft did back down from that policy (not allowing games like Skyrim and its ilk): http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/10/microsoft-to-allow-mature-games-in-european-windows-8-store/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/10/microsoft-to-allow-mat...
ralfn 14y ago
You do realize both Microsoft as well as Apple are trying to separate the consumer market from the high end, professional market. The cheapest Apple device that allows side-loading costs 999 euro's. The cheapest win8 device that allows side loading will be at least 800 euro's. I understand why. The biggest problem of the convential desktop is the ugly compomize between freedom, power users and professionals on one end, and casual consumer usage at the other end. But that does mean, many of Valves current customers, that buy midrange devices, will end up on RT or iOS. And the crowd on this site, will likely find the devices aimed for them moving to a more expensive and exclusive niche.

110011001100 14y ago

How is windows app store different from Ubuntu app store Especially considering that anything not from an app store is much easier to install on Windows (double click on GUI installer) than on Ubuntu (mess around with dependencies, and compiling stuff). Everything on Ubuntu comes from the Ubuntu store, or the Aptitude store. Not an easy task to download something like an exe off the web and install it

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
slowpoke 14y ago
With all due respect, you have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. First of all, every damn time someone brings up the "you just have to double click the installer on Windows" argument, they leave out the steps before that (most prominently, locate and download a safe copy of said installer). Second, I don't know what FUD you have been told about Linux on the desktop, but contrary to what you assert about it, no, installing applications on almost all widespread Linux distributions I can spontaneously think of - except Gentoo - requires neither compiling nor messing around with dependencies. Third, no, not everything on Ubuntu comes from the "Ubuntu store" or "Apitude store" - in fact, neither of those exists. If you are talking about the Ubuntu Software Center, that's basically just a fancy front-end for APT - as is Aptitude. If I remember correctly, the UCS also allows purchasing of some commercial software as of recently (I don't use Ubuntu). In addition, Ubuntu (and derived distributions) have a thing called Personal Package Archives, whose very concept is to make it possible to easily add your own package sources to complement the official repositories. The UCS can handle those, too. Also, there's a very important distinction between a package repository as used in many Linux distributions and a closed app store: the former is, at least to an extent, managed by the community and the users. You cannot say that of the latter.
- peeters 14y ago
  And to add to that, installing a .deb or an .rpm (if that's the route the software is distributed, like with Chrome) is a one-click solution (the rough equivalent to an .msi). And if someone wants to give you simply a precompiled binary, they can do that too. Though in Linux you need to set the executable flag on it so you don't shoot yourself in the foot like you so easily can with malicious .exe files.

macspoofing 14y ago

>Valve has always been in favor of open platforms. Steam?

JadeNB 14y ago

> The title (and article) is really bad journalism. I don't know if the title has been changed since it was posted—I suspect not, since it matches the URL—but what it actually says is that Linux is more viable than Windows for gaming (which is probably more surprising; but, in any case, is certainly a different point).

shikhar123 14y ago

I would not completely buy this idea of Microsoft moving away from openness http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/directory.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/directory.aspx http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-is-serious-about-open-source-10-proof-points/12784 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-is-serious-abo...