4 ms·

This is why UBI should scare everyone. People see UBI and think, "Oh everyone will get basically what I have and I'm happy so they'll be happy too." Humanity

by ap99 8mo ago

This is why UBI should scare everyone. People see UBI and think, "Oh everyone will get basically what I have and I'm happy so they'll be happy too." Humanity or economics don't work like that. With capitalism we have the power to control our economic outcomes (to a large extent). Work more; earn more. This isn't perfect or always fair but life is never 100% fair. With UBI, who do you think decides how much income you get? And how do you think those people get that power? And what happens when some resource is scarce and can't be given to everyone? Be it oil, medicine, medical services, food, clean water, a birth permit, etc. Life isn't fair now - but it took a lot of blood and effort to get to this point and life can get A LOT more unfair if we're not careful.

NicuCalcea 8mo ago
As opposed to what, the same situation and no UBI? UBI doesn't prevent you from accumulating additional capital if you want better economic outcomes. It's a floor, not a ceiling.
beej71 8mo ago
Right now the AI bros are shouting from the rooftops that we're going to have no income and we'll have plenty of time to grow our own food. So I guess we have to weigh the pros and cons of that against UBI. And, further, if people aren't getting enough food, all bets are off. I'm not a huge UBI fan, but if we keep concentrating wealth, it's an inevitability. So we better start trying to make life more fair.
atmavatar 8mo ago
> Work more; earn more. That's only true from a very narrow perspective. Sure, if you have one job and you pick up another, you make a little more. But, from a broader perspective, it's pure fiction. The hardest working people are often the poorest among us. Your connections matter far more than your work ethic ever will.
thrance 8mo ago
> With capitalism we have the power to control our economic outcomes (to a large extent). Work more; earn more. Go tell that to the slave laborers in the global South that made the clothes you are currently wearing. These people work way harder than me and make way less. Truth is, capital earns more than labor under Capitalism. It is absolutely not a fair system for the vast majority of humanity, and should be improved upon. But otherwise, I agree with your take on UBI.
- akramachamarei 8mo ago
  You call them "slaves"... where are the whips and chains? If you can't show me whips and chains, tell me why they choose to work in the clothing plants? If they aren't forced to work there, doesn't that suggest that the plants are a desirable alternative to other options in their situation? Now, maybe you believe something more sophisticated, like somehow the appearance of the plants also eliminated opportunities which were better than all presently available options to workers of the "global south." If you believe that, can you explain to me why?
  - thrance 8mo ago
    I think you know perfectly well what I meant by "slaves". I trust you are able to recognize an hyperbole when you see one. Most of humanity lives with little prospect of improving their lives through its work, and OP's comment about capitalism allowing everyone to do so is just patently wrong. Living in countries without social nets or worker protections, people are forced to take whatever "opportunities" are given to them and toil away for a wage that doesn't equate one one hundredth of what they output. Either that or they starve, hence the lack of freedom and therefore why "slave" feels appropriate, even with a lack of physical "whips and chains".
    - akramachamarei 8mo ago
      Hyperbole, sure. When you used the word "slave", you didn't mean it. When you used the word "freedom" just now, that's not what you actually meant either, is it? You're probably talking about something like the capabilities model, not actually freedom. You seem to think it's so unfair that people work, or they starve. I focus on your usage of words like "slavery" and "freedom" because I want to get at what you actually believe. You're implying there's a better way to run the world than to have "capitalism", which is to say, property is enforced, contracts are enforced, and people are allowed to trade consensually without (much) interference from men with badges and guns. But, like your loaded use of the term "slave", the lede has been left implicit; like "freedom" your alternative is left nebulous. Or is your complaint hyperbole too? Should I not take it seriously? Sure, you might be correct in a limited sense, that an uncharitable reading of OP's comment is wrong. But based on history, I don't see how the average person is going to get a better Return for their Work with some other system which doesn't respect property, contracts, free exchange, and if so, at what cost. Finally, you're dead wrong about most people in the world. Ever heard of the rise of the global middle class? Poverty is falling on a global scale. That's not because of charity.
Razengan 8mo ago
> This is why UBI should scare everyone. No
pupppet 8mo ago
> Work more; earn more. Dang these billionaires must be working a lot.

by ap99 8mo ago

NicuCalcea 8mo ago

As opposed to what, the same situation and no UBI? UBI doesn't prevent you from accumulating additional capital if you want better economic outcomes. It's a floor, not a ceiling.

beej71 8mo ago

Right now the AI bros are shouting from the rooftops that we're going to have no income and we'll have plenty of time to grow our own food. So I guess we have to weigh the pros and cons of that against UBI. And, further, if people aren't getting enough food, all bets are off. I'm not a huge UBI fan, but if we keep concentrating wealth, it's an inevitability. So we better start trying to make life more fair.

atmavatar 8mo ago

> Work more; earn more. That's only true from a very narrow perspective. Sure, if you have one job and you pick up another, you make a little more. But, from a broader perspective, it's pure fiction. The hardest working people are often the poorest among us. Your connections matter far more than your work ethic ever will.

thrance 8mo ago

> With capitalism we have the power to control our economic outcomes (to a large extent). Work more; earn more. Go tell that to the slave laborers in the global South that made the clothes you are currently wearing. These people work way harder than me and make way less. Truth is, capital earns more than labor under Capitalism. It is absolutely not a fair system for the vast majority of humanity, and should be improved upon. But otherwise, I agree with your take on UBI.

akramachamarei 8mo ago
You call them "slaves"... where are the whips and chains? If you can't show me whips and chains, tell me why they choose to work in the clothing plants? If they aren't forced to work there, doesn't that suggest that the plants are a desirable alternative to other options in their situation? Now, maybe you believe something more sophisticated, like somehow the appearance of the plants also eliminated opportunities which were better than all presently available options to workers of the "global south." If you believe that, can you explain to me why?
- thrance 8mo ago
  I think you know perfectly well what I meant by "slaves". I trust you are able to recognize an hyperbole when you see one. Most of humanity lives with little prospect of improving their lives through its work, and OP's comment about capitalism allowing everyone to do so is just patently wrong. Living in countries without social nets or worker protections, people are forced to take whatever "opportunities" are given to them and toil away for a wage that doesn't equate one one hundredth of what they output. Either that or they starve, hence the lack of freedom and therefore why "slave" feels appropriate, even with a lack of physical "whips and chains".
  - akramachamarei 8mo ago
    Hyperbole, sure. When you used the word "slave", you didn't mean it. When you used the word "freedom" just now, that's not what you actually meant either, is it? You're probably talking about something like the capabilities model, not actually freedom. You seem to think it's so unfair that people work, or they starve. I focus on your usage of words like "slavery" and "freedom" because I want to get at what you actually believe. You're implying there's a better way to run the world than to have "capitalism", which is to say, property is enforced, contracts are enforced, and people are allowed to trade consensually without (much) interference from men with badges and guns. But, like your loaded use of the term "slave", the lede has been left implicit; like "freedom" your alternative is left nebulous. Or is your complaint hyperbole too? Should I not take it seriously? Sure, you might be correct in a limited sense, that an uncharitable reading of OP's comment is wrong. But based on history, I don't see how the average person is going to get a better Return for their Work with some other system which doesn't respect property, contracts, free exchange, and if so, at what cost. Finally, you're dead wrong about most people in the world. Ever heard of the rise of the global middle class? Poverty is falling on a global scale. That's not because of charity.

Razengan 8mo ago

> This is why UBI should scare everyone. No

pupppet 8mo ago

> Work more; earn more. Dang these billionaires must be working a lot.